1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,000 ALEX STAMOS: Everybody, 2 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:04,334 the Penn and Teller theater. 3 00:00:07,501 --> 00:00:08,709 My name is Alex Stamos. 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,375 I'm here to talk about the ethics 5 00:00:12,375 --> 00:00:14,999 Yeah, so, if you're here 6 00:00:14,999 --> 00:00:16,626 now is the time to go. 7 00:00:18,083 --> 00:00:21,834 So a couple this is supposed 8 00:00:21,834 --> 00:00:25,375 We kicked around a couple ideas, 9 00:00:25,459 --> 00:00:29,999 Could be me dousing my career 10 00:00:30,417 --> 00:00:32,792 Could be a lot of outcomes. 11 00:00:34,626 --> 00:00:37,999 One disclaimer I'm here personally, 12 00:00:37,999 --> 00:00:39,417 up here. 13 00:00:39,542 --> 00:00:42,999 If you're a reporter or are going 14 00:00:42,999 --> 00:00:45,999 or something, just say Alex Stamos 15 00:00:45,999 --> 00:00:48,792 dashingly handsome citizen, 16 00:00:48,792 --> 00:00:52,042 the corporate people not know I'm here. 17 00:00:53,125 --> 00:00:55,959 This is going to be 18 00:00:55,959 --> 00:01:00,751 interactive means not screaming 19 00:01:00,751 --> 00:01:03,999 We have specific interactive points 20 00:01:03,999 --> 00:01:07,999 from you guys so I'm hoping to kick 21 00:01:07,999 --> 00:01:11,334 in over the next couple years, 22 00:01:11,334 --> 00:01:14,501 of where we live in interesting times. 23 00:01:15,751 --> 00:01:18,918 We're going to talk 24 00:01:18,918 --> 00:01:22,751 to think about us as an industry 25 00:01:22,751 --> 00:01:24,959 within the industry. 26 00:01:24,999 --> 00:01:27,125 And then I think 27 00:01:27,125 --> 00:01:29,375 is I'm going 28 00:01:29,375 --> 00:01:33,834 and we're all going to vote 29 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:35,959 So this is an open discussion space, 30 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,667 with very different backgrounds 31 00:01:38,667 --> 00:01:41,792 about what's going 32 00:01:41,792 --> 00:01:44,876 I just hope everybody is responsive, 33 00:01:44,876 --> 00:01:47,834 to each other 34 00:01:47,834 --> 00:01:49,459 should be. 35 00:01:49,459 --> 00:01:52,834 We're going to talk 36 00:01:52,834 --> 00:01:54,209 You don't have to applaud let. 37 00:01:54,209 --> 00:01:55,375 I'm like Dan Kominski. 38 00:01:55,375 --> 00:01:56,375 I'll stop. 39 00:01:56,375 --> 00:01:58,125 And you can see your applause point. 40 00:02:00,999 --> 00:02:06,167 I'm not here to put moral framework 41 00:02:06,167 --> 00:02:07,083 It's for you 42 00:02:07,083 --> 00:02:09,501 from so you understand my biases. 43 00:02:11,375 --> 00:02:14,999 My first DEF CON many years ago 44 00:02:14,999 --> 00:02:18,167 the hotel room 45 00:02:18,626 --> 00:02:21,125 Like many people I was self taught. 46 00:02:21,125 --> 00:02:22,083 As a teenager, 47 00:02:22,083 --> 00:02:24,292 of what I mean by self taught. 48 00:02:25,459 --> 00:02:30,083 I worked after defensive roles 49 00:02:30,083 --> 00:02:31,999 I started 50 00:02:31,999 --> 00:02:33,834 worked out well. 51 00:02:34,999 --> 00:02:37,999 One of the best parts of my career 52 00:02:37,999 --> 00:02:41,542 with fantastic people and give fantastic 53 00:02:41,542 --> 00:02:43,417 into the industry. 54 00:02:43,417 --> 00:02:45,626 That's one of the things I'm most proud 55 00:02:45,709 --> 00:02:48,375 As part of that job, I've worked 56 00:02:48,375 --> 00:02:50,999 an I've seen what it's like to be 57 00:02:50,999 --> 00:02:54,959 of a nation state who wants 58 00:02:54,959 --> 00:02:57,375 I've been asked to do stuff for the U.S. 59 00:02:57,375 --> 00:02:59,375 government and I've helped in the past. 60 00:02:59,959 --> 00:03:02,751 I have been to places 61 00:03:02,751 --> 00:03:05,667 those who ironed your shirts 62 00:03:05,667 --> 00:03:08,751 will understand where those locations 63 00:03:10,292 --> 00:03:14,292 And my work has put 64 00:03:14,292 --> 00:03:15,999 So I'm just trying to be honest 65 00:03:15,999 --> 00:03:18,292 about where I'm coming 66 00:03:18,292 --> 00:03:21,709 of the DEF CON crowd I'm 67 00:03:24,667 --> 00:03:27,709 I'm a corporate white hat sellout. 68 00:03:27,709 --> 00:03:29,584 This talk about is about the ethics 69 00:03:29,584 --> 00:03:31,792 a sellout how you can do so. 70 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:37,959 If you're an anarchist or anti info sec 71 00:03:37,959 --> 00:03:43,876 but realize you're not going 72 00:03:43,876 --> 00:03:47,584 So I've been doing this for a while now. 73 00:03:47,876 --> 00:03:50,834 In the last couple years I've had 74 00:03:50,999 --> 00:03:52,918 Like it used to be easy 75 00:03:52,918 --> 00:03:54,876 to get into security. 76 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:55,999 It was something fun. 77 00:03:55,999 --> 00:03:58,542 It was something you could get paid 78 00:03:58,542 --> 00:04:00,375 Things you would usually do for free. 79 00:04:00,375 --> 00:04:03,375 And that's how a lot of us slipped 80 00:04:03,375 --> 00:04:06,792 these days you need you need 81 00:04:06,792 --> 00:04:10,459 goal and this has come 82 00:04:10,876 --> 00:04:12,999 We live in interesting times. 83 00:04:12,999 --> 00:04:17,125 Good old days there's only one good 84 00:04:17,125 --> 00:04:19,751 Do you want to be on the white hat 85 00:04:21,083 --> 00:04:23,375 Everybody likes to break things. 86 00:04:23,375 --> 00:04:25,584 Everybody likes to look 87 00:04:25,584 --> 00:04:28,375 out how it works and tear it apart. 88 00:04:28,375 --> 00:04:31,083 If you're on the black hat side, 89 00:04:31,083 --> 00:04:34,250 for personal gain, you use it 90 00:04:34,250 --> 00:04:37,626 to get your shoutouts to your friends. 91 00:04:37,999 --> 00:04:40,792 Or you use it for some kind 92 00:04:40,999 --> 00:04:42,959 If you're a white hat, 93 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:45,999 to make that system better 94 00:04:46,083 --> 00:04:46,918 And you might disagree 95 00:04:46,918 --> 00:04:48,999 but that's what I'm going to use today. 96 00:04:48,999 --> 00:04:50,292 It used to not be that hard. 97 00:04:50,292 --> 00:04:54,584 You could pick one or another 98 00:04:54,834 --> 00:04:56,918 But the definition is simple. 99 00:04:56,999 --> 00:04:59,999 There's a lot of ways to be 100 00:04:59,999 --> 00:05:02,501 You can work for corporate 101 00:05:02,501 --> 00:05:06,083 as a small group of folks, 102 00:05:06,083 --> 00:05:10,375 or getting consulting contracts 103 00:05:10,375 --> 00:05:14,999 with their parents, there's a number 104 00:05:14,999 --> 00:05:17,334 and stay independent. 105 00:05:17,334 --> 00:05:19,209 You can be a consultant 106 00:05:19,209 --> 00:05:21,751 is the environment 107 00:05:21,751 --> 00:05:25,751 an academic, there are a lot of ways 108 00:05:25,918 --> 00:05:29,501 But back in the late night '90s, 109 00:05:33,876 --> 00:05:37,999 It seems like we were children fighting 110 00:05:37,999 --> 00:05:39,999 full disclosure. 111 00:05:40,167 --> 00:05:43,709 The goal of the responsible 112 00:05:43,709 --> 00:05:46,125 I've got a bug, I want to protect 113 00:05:46,125 --> 00:05:49,999 from this bug, what is the best way 114 00:05:50,167 --> 00:05:55,083 It's still an open discussion 115 00:05:55,083 --> 00:05:58,417 Because it 201 he 3 116 00:05:58,417 --> 00:06:02,876 the same outline of why they go 117 00:06:02,876 --> 00:06:06,209 It assumes everybody wants 118 00:06:06,375 --> 00:06:07,792 Also back 119 00:06:07,792 --> 00:06:10,834 a company wasn't that difficult. 120 00:06:10,834 --> 00:06:12,999 Some people didn't want to work 121 00:06:12,999 --> 00:06:16,083 in a world where a lot 122 00:06:16,083 --> 00:06:19,250 on both sides of the fence, 123 00:06:19,250 --> 00:06:21,167 DEF CON, 124 00:06:21,167 --> 00:06:26,083 at the same time they're selling tools 125 00:06:26,083 --> 00:06:28,501 Not just in developing countries 126 00:06:28,501 --> 00:06:30,999 and other western countries. 127 00:06:31,334 --> 00:06:34,459 Back in that day we had little interaction 128 00:06:34,459 --> 00:06:35,626 So, if you were obviously 129 00:06:35,626 --> 00:06:38,083 you would interact 130 00:06:38,083 --> 00:06:41,999 but you could go your entire career 131 00:06:41,999 --> 00:06:45,417 to 2003 and never have to talk 132 00:06:45,417 --> 00:06:49,751 about just what you're doing 133 00:06:49,751 --> 00:06:51,501 That's obviously not true any more. 134 00:06:51,501 --> 00:06:53,417 And there's a lot of gray hat activity. 135 00:06:53,417 --> 00:06:56,125 A lot of people chose 136 00:06:56,125 --> 00:06:57,292 But a lot was harmless. 137 00:06:57,292 --> 00:06:58,959 A lot of people I know holding 138 00:06:58,959 --> 00:07:02,999 of the past making them feel young 139 00:07:02,999 --> 00:07:07,542 or doing something cool but a lot 140 00:07:07,542 --> 00:07:12,167 malicious so it didn't compete too much 141 00:07:12,459 --> 00:07:14,334 So what changed? 142 00:07:14,334 --> 00:07:16,999 A lot of people ask when 143 00:07:16,999 --> 00:07:19,584 When am I getting my fucking robot 144 00:07:20,167 --> 00:07:23,626 And you know, it turns 145 00:07:23,626 --> 00:07:27,209 of different ways, we live 146 00:07:27,209 --> 00:07:30,083 Gibson, Sterling and 147 00:07:30,083 --> 00:07:32,083 about in the '80. 148 00:07:32,334 --> 00:07:36,250 That's amazing, sci fi authors 149 00:07:36,250 --> 00:07:40,083 but the guys 150 00:07:40,209 --> 00:07:43,709 We're in a world with corporate 151 00:07:43,709 --> 00:07:47,334 to corporate info warfare 152 00:07:47,375 --> 00:07:51,999 That's a normal part of our lives 153 00:07:51,999 --> 00:07:56,250 somewhat paid for by nation state 154 00:07:56,250 --> 00:07:59,250 and steal secrets, which 155 00:07:59,250 --> 00:08:04,876 up out of William Gibson novels 156 00:08:05,209 --> 00:08:08,709 We live in a world where our country, 157 00:08:08,709 --> 00:08:10,999 with semi autonomous robots. 158 00:08:10,999 --> 00:08:12,542 I'm not kill people. 159 00:08:12,542 --> 00:08:14,834 I'm just saying James Cameron, way 160 00:08:14,834 --> 00:08:20,417 you really called that one much quicker 161 00:08:20,876 --> 00:08:22,999 We don't make them look 162 00:08:22,999 --> 00:08:25,542 a bipedal titanium robot 163 00:08:25,542 --> 00:08:27,626 to build a killer robot. 164 00:08:27,626 --> 00:08:31,083 Or make them look 165 00:08:31,083 --> 00:08:33,334 They're made more cheaper 166 00:08:35,584 --> 00:08:39,250 We live in a world where 167 00:08:39,250 --> 00:08:44,334 on a massive data surveillance 168 00:08:44,334 --> 00:08:47,792 Preventing criminal activities 169 00:08:47,792 --> 00:08:50,792 by looking at Internet traffic. 170 00:08:51,167 --> 00:08:52,999 And I wish any of these things was 171 00:08:52,999 --> 00:08:56,334 about I don't think anybody here thinks 172 00:08:57,999 --> 00:09:00,167 What are fun things that happened. 173 00:09:00,209 --> 00:09:02,125 We have Stuxnet and flame. 174 00:09:02,292 --> 00:09:04,876 I'm sure most people have heard 175 00:09:04,876 --> 00:09:05,999 Those are pieces 176 00:09:05,999 --> 00:09:09,501 against the Islamic Republic of Iran. 177 00:09:09,709 --> 00:09:11,999 I'm not going 178 00:09:11,999 --> 00:09:15,125 at any governments that were related 179 00:09:15,125 --> 00:09:18,751 a feel who might have been involved 180 00:09:18,751 --> 00:09:21,083 And I feel this is kind 181 00:09:21,083 --> 00:09:24,542 of the no more free bugs movement 182 00:09:24,542 --> 00:09:29,417 a an open marketplace that didn't exist 183 00:09:29,417 --> 00:09:34,334 weaponize it and whoever 184 00:09:34,999 --> 00:09:37,999 We live in a world where cyber war 185 00:09:37,999 --> 00:09:41,542 Almost any corporation 186 00:09:41,542 --> 00:09:46,999 of threat that you only played 187 00:09:46,999 --> 00:09:49,999 in 2003, 188 00:09:49,999 --> 00:09:56,125 and people building planes 189 00:09:56,334 --> 00:09:59,584 Last year I did a project 190 00:09:59,584 --> 00:10:00,584 Right? 191 00:10:00,709 --> 00:10:04,125 They've got a dozen IT guys, 192 00:10:04,125 --> 00:10:06,334 job it 193 00:10:06,334 --> 00:10:09,626 and you're like well who cares 194 00:10:09,626 --> 00:10:12,626 Well, they employ tens of thousands 195 00:10:12,626 --> 00:10:16,000 of dollars of heavy industry and 196 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,250 in places like China. 197 00:10:18,626 --> 00:10:22,751 And so, if you just happened to be 198 00:10:22,751 --> 00:10:27,459 then you're going to end up at a level 199 00:10:27,459 --> 00:10:30,667 unimaginable a couple years ago. 200 00:10:30,709 --> 00:10:33,167 And what's really scary from that 201 00:10:33,167 --> 00:10:35,999 for a company that size 202 00:10:35,999 --> 00:10:38,000 to protect themselves. 203 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,292 Like the people doing the best 204 00:10:39,292 --> 00:10:41,876 against the Chinese right now 205 00:10:41,999 --> 00:10:44,250 Google has like 150 security people. 206 00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:46,083 They've got windows kernel experts. 207 00:10:46,083 --> 00:10:47,250 OS10 kernel experts. 208 00:10:48,250 --> 00:10:50,542 They have an intelligence team. 209 00:10:50,834 --> 00:10:53,999 They're not winning, 210 00:10:54,209 --> 00:10:59,918 So tractor company is fucked, 211 00:10:59,918 --> 00:11:02,167 (Laughter) And this 212 00:11:05,209 --> 00:11:07,876 Isn't capitalism what the world 213 00:11:08,083 --> 00:11:09,626 And competition. 214 00:11:09,626 --> 00:11:10,792 I want to get 215 00:11:10,792 --> 00:11:12,667 the interactive part is. 216 00:11:16,667 --> 00:11:18,584 I just want to have enough time. 217 00:11:20,792 --> 00:11:25,334 We live in a world when companies are 218 00:11:25,334 --> 00:11:30,999 Those looking at flame, 219 00:11:30,999 --> 00:11:35,167 out they don't sell those much. 220 00:11:35,167 --> 00:11:38,083 You can't call them and say can I sign 221 00:11:38,626 --> 00:11:41,999 You have to steal that from them 222 00:11:41,999 --> 00:11:46,083 an entirely new way doing 223 00:11:46,083 --> 00:11:49,501 been used before in open literature 224 00:11:49,501 --> 00:11:54,083 a couple millisecond window 225 00:11:54,083 --> 00:11:57,999 license certificate authority 226 00:11:57,999 --> 00:12:02,209 an identical MB5 sub 227 00:12:02,626 --> 00:12:06,083 This is the equivalent 228 00:12:06,083 --> 00:12:08,709 with $10 million 229 00:12:08,709 --> 00:12:11,459 of cyanide would have done it. 230 00:12:11,584 --> 00:12:14,667 This tells you something 231 00:12:15,375 --> 00:12:17,375 This is basically the U.S. 232 00:12:17,375 --> 00:12:19,876 government being like oh, yeah, yeah, 233 00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:20,876 Boom. 234 00:12:20,876 --> 00:12:21,876 Drop mic. 235 00:12:21,876 --> 00:12:23,417 What are you going to do about it? 236 00:12:23,417 --> 00:12:24,417 Right? 237 00:12:24,417 --> 00:12:24,751 (Laughter) It's 238 00:12:24,751 --> 00:12:26,125 with radioactive material. 239 00:12:26,125 --> 00:12:28,083 You could just shoot 240 00:12:28,083 --> 00:12:30,167 saved $9,985,000. 241 00:12:33,375 --> 00:12:38,667 That's by the entire pack 242 00:12:38,667 --> 00:12:40,626 Instead they thought we're going 243 00:12:40,626 --> 00:12:42,417 material over London. 244 00:12:42,417 --> 00:12:44,125 This is the cyber wary equivalent. 245 00:12:44,501 --> 00:12:48,667 Whoever wrote Flame was willing 246 00:12:48,667 --> 00:12:51,876 actual attack against Microsoft. 247 00:12:52,167 --> 00:12:54,334 What does that make you feel 248 00:12:54,334 --> 00:12:56,959 and you have all this relationship 249 00:12:56,959 --> 00:12:59,375 of the world where you're trying 250 00:12:59,375 --> 00:13:01,999 and you're trying to work with them 251 00:13:01,999 --> 00:13:04,584 about your products and by the way, 252 00:13:04,584 --> 00:13:06,999 on the defense side, somebody 253 00:13:06,999 --> 00:13:10,667 like it's open season 254 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:15,876 We live in a world where these cyber 255 00:13:15,876 --> 00:13:17,834 another blogger. 256 00:13:17,834 --> 00:13:19,751 And I forget exactly who made 257 00:13:19,751 --> 00:13:21,999 a gun at somebody, 258 00:13:21,999 --> 00:13:24,250 out and throw it back at you. 259 00:13:24,626 --> 00:13:27,751 But, if you throw a rock 260 00:13:27,751 --> 00:13:31,125 them, they're going to throw 261 00:13:31,751 --> 00:13:34,876 Using the word cyber without irony 262 00:13:34,876 --> 00:13:36,999 in an info sec communities. 263 00:13:37,999 --> 00:13:39,918 But that seems to be 264 00:13:39,918 --> 00:13:41,209 these days. 265 00:13:41,751 --> 00:13:44,083 These cyber weapons are 266 00:13:44,125 --> 00:13:46,999 For the short period of time 267 00:13:46,999 --> 00:13:50,542 about several critical bugs 268 00:13:50,542 --> 00:13:53,626 controller is United States 269 00:13:53,626 --> 00:13:57,751 if Iran who paid attention 270 00:13:57,751 --> 00:14:00,292 God this guy's Finnish 271 00:14:00,292 --> 00:14:03,999 the other folks who have been finding 272 00:14:03,999 --> 00:14:06,792 in the wild had any other kind 273 00:14:06,792 --> 00:14:11,334 from a society where they're totally 274 00:14:11,334 --> 00:14:14,459 we very well could have seen these 275 00:14:14,459 --> 00:14:19,999 against all the companies we work 276 00:14:20,501 --> 00:14:22,751 So it brings up a question 277 00:14:22,751 --> 00:14:25,209 against cyber war, 278 00:14:25,209 --> 00:14:27,209 who's buying them. 279 00:14:27,209 --> 00:14:28,959 Offensive or defensive teams. 280 00:14:28,959 --> 00:14:30,918 I've never heard 281 00:14:30,918 --> 00:14:33,167 in the way they knew. 282 00:14:33,375 --> 00:14:35,999 There was 283 00:14:35,999 --> 00:14:37,999 that could buy it. 284 00:14:37,999 --> 00:14:39,459 What are they doing with them? 285 00:14:39,459 --> 00:14:41,667 Using it for foreign use 286 00:14:41,876 --> 00:14:45,292 An what goals are being accomplished 287 00:14:45,292 --> 00:14:48,083 about when you sell bugs 288 00:14:48,083 --> 00:14:51,083 the nation's goal or government 289 00:14:51,083 --> 00:14:54,501 at that moment that are being 290 00:14:54,501 --> 00:14:55,334 And if want to know what 291 00:14:55,334 --> 00:14:57,584 is between nation's goal 292 00:14:57,584 --> 00:14:59,999 I see people with white pony tails, 293 00:14:59,999 --> 00:15:02,417 about a man named Richard Nixon 294 00:15:02,417 --> 00:15:04,417 to you what happened. 295 00:15:06,083 --> 00:15:08,959 So we also have a world not 296 00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:12,125 and Justice Department and 297 00:15:12,125 --> 00:15:14,959 a real problem in our world 298 00:15:14,959 --> 00:15:19,250 between prosecution and persecution 299 00:15:19,459 --> 00:15:23,584 For example, there's a lot 300 00:15:23,584 --> 00:15:28,125 from their bosses, which is as old 301 00:15:28,125 --> 00:15:32,083 and taken their customer lists 302 00:15:32,083 --> 00:15:35,125 And this is why we have NDAs, this 303 00:15:35,125 --> 00:15:38,083 This is why we have civil lawsuits 304 00:15:38,083 --> 00:15:41,999 have stolen their trade secrets 305 00:15:41,999 --> 00:15:44,999 people as criminals using 306 00:15:44,999 --> 00:15:48,999 of 1996 because it happens to be 307 00:15:49,083 --> 00:15:51,876 20 years ago if you walked 308 00:15:51,876 --> 00:15:54,999 you would have gotten sued 309 00:15:54,999 --> 00:15:58,626 have had to give it back 310 00:15:58,626 --> 00:16:00,083 These days if you have 311 00:16:00,083 --> 00:16:03,751 on a USB drive that turns you 312 00:16:03,751 --> 00:16:06,792 like these guys, 313 00:16:06,792 --> 00:16:08,999 rap at Goldman Sachs. 314 00:16:16,083 --> 00:16:18,959 Argwal, who left 315 00:16:18,959 --> 00:16:20,959 secrets with them. 316 00:16:20,959 --> 00:16:23,083 I don't think they should walk 317 00:16:23,083 --> 00:16:25,876 those hedge funds to make money 318 00:16:25,876 --> 00:16:27,999 a national security issue. 319 00:16:27,999 --> 00:16:28,999 This 320 00:16:28,999 --> 00:16:31,999 between these folks that now 321 00:16:31,999 --> 00:16:34,999 the soul crushing power 322 00:16:34,999 --> 00:16:38,501 of Justice is being turned 323 00:16:38,501 --> 00:16:40,626 And then of course we know 324 00:16:40,626 --> 00:16:43,501 and Abuse Act people 325 00:16:43,501 --> 00:16:44,999 data out. 326 00:16:45,501 --> 00:16:48,584 I don't consider him 327 00:16:48,584 --> 00:16:52,125 But I don't think he deserves to be 328 00:16:52,751 --> 00:16:56,667 Lori drew, again, not a nice person. 329 00:16:56,667 --> 00:16:59,709 I don't want to hang out with her, 330 00:16:59,709 --> 00:17:02,250 the myspace terms of service 331 00:17:02,250 --> 00:17:05,751 and Aaron Schwartz, the elephant 332 00:17:06,792 --> 00:17:12,083 So where I come to this 333 00:17:12,083 --> 00:17:13,501 Like I said, 334 00:17:13,501 --> 00:17:17,292 times in the prosecution 335 00:17:17,999 --> 00:17:20,918 And these were 336 00:17:20,918 --> 00:17:24,083 like stole a book or something like that. 337 00:17:24,501 --> 00:17:27,751 So you know, as part of my penance, 338 00:17:27,751 --> 00:17:30,751 of pro bono work 339 00:17:30,751 --> 00:17:34,999 my company provided pro bono work 340 00:17:34,999 --> 00:17:38,459 of Sony doing everything possible 341 00:17:38,459 --> 00:17:40,999 in a meeting 342 00:17:40,999 --> 00:17:44,626 a real estate lawyer and 343 00:17:44,626 --> 00:17:46,626 at Internet law. 344 00:17:46,626 --> 00:17:48,918 Okay, that's great. 345 00:17:48,918 --> 00:17:51,792 Maybe if my life is at stake, 346 00:17:51,792 --> 00:17:54,125 But it's like him, 347 00:17:54,125 --> 00:17:58,083 about the case but came just 348 00:17:58,083 --> 00:18:01,292 of the table and me, 349 00:18:01,292 --> 00:18:05,999 is four big law partners who almost 350 00:18:05,999 --> 00:18:09,250 an hour to sit there across from us. 351 00:18:09,751 --> 00:18:14,501 And this is because a guy was able 352 00:18:14,501 --> 00:18:17,876 Sony is willing to bury us in paper. 353 00:18:18,083 --> 00:18:19,959 And obviously that happens. 354 00:18:19,999 --> 00:18:21,999 There's not a lot we can do 355 00:18:21,999 --> 00:18:25,999 on Aaron Schwartz's case 356 00:18:27,375 --> 00:18:30,959 Part of my job for the defense was 357 00:18:30,959 --> 00:18:34,334 the prosecution's expert created 358 00:18:34,334 --> 00:18:37,083 is or what company he worked for. 359 00:18:37,083 --> 00:18:38,999 I don't think he did anything wrong. 360 00:18:38,999 --> 00:18:40,999 This is a guy who worked 361 00:18:40,999 --> 00:18:44,209 company who was approached 362 00:18:44,209 --> 00:18:47,083 on those machine and tell us what 363 00:18:47,083 --> 00:18:50,792 a reasonable workman, like, 364 00:18:50,792 --> 00:18:52,999 ands I found this in the logs 365 00:18:52,999 --> 00:18:56,417 like he changes his Mac address 366 00:18:56,918 --> 00:18:59,999 We had a couple things to hit him 367 00:18:59,999 --> 00:19:01,459 He didn't lie. 368 00:19:01,459 --> 00:19:04,876 He didn't make things 369 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:04,876 S. 370 00:19:04,876 --> 00:19:07,626 attorney's office and twisted 371 00:19:07,626 --> 00:19:11,083 to turn into Aaron Swartz was 372 00:19:12,501 --> 00:19:16,709 And, if I was him, 373 00:19:16,709 --> 00:19:22,083 been unitized in a way to persecute 374 00:19:25,501 --> 00:19:27,792 What is our role here? 375 00:19:27,792 --> 00:19:31,083 Is our role as technical experts 376 00:19:31,083 --> 00:19:33,876 job to make sure justice is done 377 00:19:33,876 --> 00:19:37,459 a more active requirement 378 00:19:37,459 --> 00:19:39,834 in the technical world? 379 00:19:39,999 --> 00:19:41,834 And obviously we have 380 00:19:41,834 --> 00:19:46,918 all the crazy people basically everything 381 00:19:46,918 --> 00:19:49,542 I apologize, 382 00:19:49,542 --> 00:19:54,792 with like a at a DEF CON party, 383 00:19:54,792 --> 00:19:57,792 that's really interesting. 384 00:19:57,792 --> 00:20:01,999 I got to go. 385 00:20:01,999 --> 00:20:02,999 I got to talk. 386 00:20:02,999 --> 00:20:07,584 All those people were right, which 387 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,167 A lot of people suspected this was 388 00:20:17,501 --> 00:20:20,250 This is from the Washington Post. 389 00:20:20,250 --> 00:20:24,999 You don't have to read it too closely, 390 00:20:26,918 --> 00:20:29,250 We suspected it's different than 391 00:20:29,375 --> 00:20:33,292 The reason that's important 392 00:20:33,292 --> 00:20:34,709 Who here has heard of that? 393 00:20:35,167 --> 00:20:38,834 A couple Poli Sci majors. 394 00:20:38,999 --> 00:20:40,667 There's this guy, 395 00:20:40,667 --> 00:20:44,375 is a political science major who came 396 00:20:44,375 --> 00:20:47,918 the most important thing 397 00:20:47,918 --> 00:20:50,334 is whether it's considered 398 00:20:50,334 --> 00:20:52,834 of acceptable discourse. 399 00:20:52,834 --> 00:20:53,834 Right? 400 00:20:53,834 --> 00:20:55,834 So he talks a lot about the need 401 00:20:55,834 --> 00:20:57,834 to have radicals. 402 00:20:57,834 --> 00:21:00,125 So for example, 403 00:21:00,125 --> 00:21:03,334 is a radical whose ideas were not 404 00:21:03,334 --> 00:21:06,501 by a couple percentage points 405 00:21:06,501 --> 00:21:08,918 the effect of being 406 00:21:08,918 --> 00:21:11,959 of the window and therefore, 407 00:21:11,959 --> 00:21:14,999 of what was acceptable political 408 00:21:14,999 --> 00:21:17,999 in which Martin Luther King 409 00:21:17,999 --> 00:21:21,999 in and be considered again 410 00:21:22,209 --> 00:21:25,083 I think what's interesting 411 00:21:25,083 --> 00:21:30,501 is from a conspiracy perspective, 412 00:21:30,501 --> 00:21:32,792 So this was 413 00:21:32,792 --> 00:21:34,834 I knew the U.S. 414 00:21:34,834 --> 00:21:38,083 government was making malware 415 00:21:38,083 --> 00:21:39,876 I have no moral problem with that. 416 00:21:39,876 --> 00:21:41,709 I have no moral problem with Stuxnet. 417 00:21:41,709 --> 00:21:43,542 If you're the President 418 00:21:43,542 --> 00:21:46,083 to you and say sir, 419 00:21:46,083 --> 00:21:48,417 a bunch 420 00:21:48,417 --> 00:21:52,459 says that we'll probably kill you know 421 00:21:52,459 --> 00:21:55,959 to be children or I can use a virus 422 00:21:55,959 --> 00:21:59,709 obviously the moral choice 423 00:21:59,709 --> 00:22:02,167 Where it gets difficult 424 00:22:02,167 --> 00:22:06,918 to make sure other people are protected 425 00:22:06,918 --> 00:22:08,459 to you go? 426 00:22:08,459 --> 00:22:09,417 It's one thing to do 427 00:22:09,417 --> 00:22:11,167 with the Iranian government 428 00:22:11,167 --> 00:22:13,751 the agricultural department 429 00:22:13,751 --> 00:22:17,918 and now it's agricultural Department 430 00:22:18,250 --> 00:22:21,167 There's a continuum we have 431 00:22:23,876 --> 00:22:27,918 Clearly well knew there was widespread 432 00:22:28,209 --> 00:22:32,999 The fact that every fiberoptic cable 433 00:22:32,999 --> 00:22:35,584 to break every six months, 434 00:22:35,584 --> 00:22:39,167 the Greek and Filipino captains 435 00:22:39,167 --> 00:22:43,459 through there have been drinking too 436 00:22:43,459 --> 00:22:47,999 the Filipino drink of choice 437 00:22:47,999 --> 00:22:51,999 and you do a tap 438 00:22:51,999 --> 00:22:55,584 good and able to get 439 00:22:55,584 --> 00:22:58,999 out of sawed Saudi Arabia or Iran. 440 00:23:01,417 --> 00:23:04,918 I thought there was malware 441 00:23:04,918 --> 00:23:07,999 in a while mobile devices are used. 442 00:23:08,501 --> 00:23:11,709 There's a slight possibility 443 00:23:11,709 --> 00:23:14,667 all of us living through this, 444 00:23:14,667 --> 00:23:17,167 because we know for a fact that stuff 445 00:23:17,167 --> 00:23:21,417 is happening and we know 446 00:23:21,417 --> 00:23:24,375 sniffing happens so it expands our 447 00:23:24,375 --> 00:23:28,209 is a possible something that we'll 448 00:23:28,209 --> 00:23:30,667 I'm now willing to discuss 449 00:23:30,667 --> 00:23:33,626 the NSA has knows how 450 00:23:33,626 --> 00:23:36,626 because they have 451 00:23:36,626 --> 00:23:40,709 for the discreet time 452 00:23:43,667 --> 00:23:46,417 Now I gave a talk about it 453 00:23:46,417 --> 00:23:50,083 before I would have thought that's 454 00:23:51,417 --> 00:23:52,999 If it turns 455 00:23:52,999 --> 00:23:56,876 and Bono still does not age, 456 00:23:59,709 --> 00:24:02,584 Isn't it an exciting time to be 457 00:24:02,626 --> 00:24:05,417 Those exciting times we have 458 00:24:05,417 --> 00:24:08,709 and thoughtful decisions of how we act. 459 00:24:10,125 --> 00:24:13,083 How do we make sense 460 00:24:13,083 --> 00:24:16,792 We're born with only basic moral 461 00:24:16,792 --> 00:24:19,209 I'm not going to get into ethical 462 00:24:19,209 --> 00:24:20,667 I was an engineering major. 463 00:24:20,792 --> 00:24:23,501 You're willing to take 464 00:24:23,501 --> 00:24:28,792 without me participating, 465 00:24:29,083 --> 00:24:32,584 We're born with the most basic, 466 00:24:32,584 --> 00:24:35,626 is and that can be overridden 467 00:24:35,626 --> 00:24:39,292 as every atrocity 468 00:24:39,709 --> 00:24:41,667 You can make humans do everything 469 00:24:41,667 --> 00:24:43,876 they were doing something right. 470 00:24:43,876 --> 00:24:45,250 I was only following orders being 471 00:24:45,250 --> 00:24:47,083 over and over again. 472 00:24:47,792 --> 00:24:50,334 We make decisions 473 00:24:50,334 --> 00:24:52,125 friends, society. 474 00:24:54,083 --> 00:24:56,209 If you want 475 00:24:56,209 --> 00:24:59,667 important to think 476 00:24:59,667 --> 00:25:02,876 Why do I feel this way and do I choose 477 00:25:02,876 --> 00:25:06,751 or am I going to leave it 478 00:25:07,792 --> 00:25:10,542 Frameworks patriotism 479 00:25:10,751 --> 00:25:13,083 Two words that don't exactly mean 480 00:25:13,083 --> 00:25:17,834 but can find 40,000 word treaties 481 00:25:17,999 --> 00:25:19,918 I'm not going to apologize. 482 00:25:19,918 --> 00:25:21,999 I'm American, I'm proud to be 483 00:25:21,999 --> 00:25:23,999 I'm the grandson 484 00:25:23,999 --> 00:25:26,999 to get to this country 485 00:25:26,999 --> 00:25:29,417 from kind 486 00:25:29,417 --> 00:25:32,999 on the side of a mountain 487 00:25:32,999 --> 00:25:35,083 of conditions, right? 488 00:25:35,918 --> 00:25:38,626 My great grandfather came here and 489 00:25:38,626 --> 00:25:41,167 and he's now you're General Stamos. 490 00:25:42,626 --> 00:25:44,999 He's like I love America! 491 00:25:46,459 --> 00:25:48,999 And when you come 492 00:25:48,999 --> 00:25:51,999 of you who understand that understand 493 00:25:51,999 --> 00:25:54,417 down because he busted his ass 494 00:25:54,417 --> 00:25:56,083 for six months so 495 00:25:56,083 --> 00:25:58,250 and do something great. 496 00:25:58,250 --> 00:25:59,999 So that's why I had 497 00:25:59,999 --> 00:26:02,999 out of school in 5th grade, came here. 498 00:26:02,999 --> 00:26:03,999 U.S. 499 00:26:03,999 --> 00:26:04,999 Army took him. 500 00:26:04,999 --> 00:26:07,667 You don't speak English, great, 501 00:26:09,999 --> 00:26:13,792 Learns English in the Army 502 00:26:13,792 --> 00:26:17,501 to do electrical engineering classes 503 00:26:17,501 --> 00:26:20,959 of a huge engineering team at Pac Bell. 504 00:26:20,999 --> 00:26:24,375 And that's like something that's pretty 505 00:26:24,375 --> 00:26:25,999 So I want to be proud of my country. 506 00:26:25,999 --> 00:26:27,209 But what does that mean? 507 00:26:27,209 --> 00:26:28,209 Right? 508 00:26:28,209 --> 00:26:29,999 Which of these is the United States? 509 00:26:29,999 --> 00:26:31,209 Is it the dirt we live on? 510 00:26:31,209 --> 00:26:34,250 Obviously the dirt that comprises 511 00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:38,999 all the time since 1776 and 512 00:26:39,125 --> 00:26:40,709 And you he no, I don't think 513 00:26:40,709 --> 00:26:42,999 to be massively different 514 00:26:42,999 --> 00:26:44,918 in the next couple years. 515 00:26:45,250 --> 00:26:47,876 Is it the government that currently 516 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:49,792 No, these people work for us. 517 00:26:49,792 --> 00:26:50,792 Right? 518 00:26:50,792 --> 00:26:51,999 I have no loyalty to them. 519 00:26:51,999 --> 00:26:54,083 Their loyalty is to me as a citizen. 520 00:26:54,083 --> 00:26:57,250 I don't think we have any loyalty 521 00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:58,999 I think it's really stupid to put 522 00:26:58,999 --> 00:27:00,792 at the post office. 523 00:27:00,834 --> 00:27:03,375 He should have our faces on his wall. 524 00:27:03,375 --> 00:27:05,083 That's how that works! 525 00:27:07,626 --> 00:27:09,918 (Laughter) Is it the citizenry? 526 00:27:09,918 --> 00:27:11,999 I am proud of fellow Americans. 527 00:27:14,999 --> 00:27:17,626 If you live in Japan, you're proud 528 00:27:17,626 --> 00:27:20,417 that means you're proud 529 00:27:20,417 --> 00:27:23,417 existed for thousands of years 530 00:27:23,417 --> 00:27:26,292 of Americans, you're proud 531 00:27:26,292 --> 00:27:29,125 an American citizen in the last year? 532 00:27:29,542 --> 00:27:30,834 Right. 533 00:27:30,834 --> 00:27:33,626 You guys have just as American 534 00:27:33,626 --> 00:27:35,083 And I'm proud of you guys, too. 535 00:27:35,083 --> 00:27:38,876 So saying you're proud 536 00:27:39,125 --> 00:27:42,083 I'm proud of the idea, right? 537 00:27:42,626 --> 00:27:44,709 The idea of limited government. 538 00:27:44,709 --> 00:27:46,667 The idea of us not trusting government. 539 00:27:46,667 --> 00:27:48,918 The idea if you read 540 00:27:48,918 --> 00:27:52,999 the founders were actually crazy anti 541 00:27:52,999 --> 00:27:56,167 What they realize 542 00:27:56,167 --> 00:28:01,792 into systems that give them power, 543 00:28:01,792 --> 00:28:05,918 to act against the interests of people. 544 00:28:05,918 --> 00:28:06,709 That's why we created 545 00:28:06,709 --> 00:28:10,083 with three parts fighting each other 546 00:28:10,083 --> 00:28:13,375 beings, even 547 00:28:13,375 --> 00:28:16,334 And I don't think the guys doing 548 00:28:16,334 --> 00:28:18,167 government right now are bad people. 549 00:28:18,167 --> 00:28:19,834 So I got dinner 550 00:28:19,834 --> 00:28:24,584 a couple nights ago the night 551 00:28:24,584 --> 00:28:28,667 I didn't know I was going to go 552 00:28:28,667 --> 00:28:30,999 One of the memories I'll take 553 00:28:30,999 --> 00:28:34,334 is Jennifer granite grilling him 554 00:28:34,334 --> 00:28:37,083 over a nice blackened cod. 555 00:28:37,083 --> 00:28:38,083 It was great. 556 00:28:38,501 --> 00:28:41,918 And watching Jennifer take it 557 00:28:41,918 --> 00:28:43,876 really enjoyable. 558 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:44,876 Right? 559 00:28:45,083 --> 00:28:49,834 (Laughter) So General Alexander, 560 00:28:49,834 --> 00:28:54,209 a big part of his thing is I really want 561 00:28:54,209 --> 00:28:57,709 but where he's coming 562 00:28:57,709 --> 00:29:00,459 during the Euroslavian war. 563 00:29:01,334 --> 00:29:06,667 Don't overestimate how much cohesion 564 00:29:07,083 --> 00:29:10,083 Any society can fall apart 565 00:29:10,959 --> 00:29:15,709 If that kind of attack happens again, 566 00:29:17,999 --> 00:29:22,584 But, if that kind of thing happens again, 567 00:29:27,167 --> 00:29:31,417 He feels he's a good guy and has 568 00:29:31,417 --> 00:29:35,083 a framing that allows him 569 00:29:35,083 --> 00:29:38,584 up to performing military coup. 570 00:29:39,083 --> 00:29:41,999 If your framing 571 00:29:41,999 --> 00:29:44,876 to destroy the constitution 572 00:29:44,876 --> 00:29:47,999 will do almost anything 573 00:29:47,999 --> 00:29:49,999 important my oath 574 00:29:49,999 --> 00:29:52,083 of the United States. 575 00:29:52,083 --> 00:29:53,501 I think this is not 576 00:29:53,501 --> 00:29:56,626 to make your moral decisions 577 00:29:56,626 --> 00:30:00,250 or nationalism but snubbed 578 00:30:00,250 --> 00:30:03,709 in the scope of the people or 579 00:30:03,709 --> 00:30:06,999 up of fallible people that make 580 00:30:07,667 --> 00:30:10,876 Another way you've got to think 581 00:30:10,876 --> 00:30:13,417 the only group you 0 responsible to. 582 00:30:13,417 --> 00:30:17,125 We have a hierarchy 583 00:30:17,125 --> 00:30:19,501 The core of that for me personally 584 00:30:19,501 --> 00:30:20,792 I've got three kids. 585 00:30:20,792 --> 00:30:23,667 I chose with my wife to bring them 586 00:30:23,667 --> 00:30:24,959 They didn't choose that. 587 00:30:24,959 --> 00:30:27,292 I have a responsibility for them 588 00:30:27,292 --> 00:30:29,417 That responsibilities drops 589 00:30:29,417 --> 00:30:31,083 to kick them out. 590 00:30:31,083 --> 00:30:32,501 But I still have 591 00:30:32,501 --> 00:30:35,751 for the creatures I brought 592 00:30:35,751 --> 00:30:36,999 Who here is a parent. 593 00:30:37,584 --> 00:30:39,501 Everybody understands that. 594 00:30:39,626 --> 00:30:43,709 You hear that when you're 23, fuck, you, 595 00:30:44,542 --> 00:30:48,209 But you live through it 596 00:30:48,209 --> 00:30:53,209 of your responsibility and has 597 00:30:53,209 --> 00:30:56,000 So in the short term there's decisions 598 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,999 Ed Snowden would not have done what 599 00:30:59,459 --> 00:31:01,626 He would have orphaned them. 600 00:31:01,709 --> 00:31:05,375 I cannot do what he did ever 601 00:31:05,375 --> 00:31:09,751 to my family that overrides any other 602 00:31:09,751 --> 00:31:11,542 would happen. 603 00:31:11,918 --> 00:31:13,918 Unfortunately, this responsibility 604 00:31:13,918 --> 00:31:17,501 of totalitarian societies have turned 605 00:31:17,751 --> 00:31:20,334 But that's a responsibility you have 606 00:31:22,501 --> 00:31:24,542 You have a responsibility to friends, 607 00:31:24,542 --> 00:31:26,334 the colleagues you happen to work 608 00:31:26,334 --> 00:31:27,999 the employees you hire turns 609 00:31:27,999 --> 00:31:30,167 an interesting world conundrum. 610 00:31:30,792 --> 00:31:34,709 When you hire somebody you're 611 00:31:34,709 --> 00:31:40,999 I'm going to pay you twice a month, 612 00:31:41,417 --> 00:31:43,709 I offered you a job that was 613 00:31:43,709 --> 00:31:47,167 and I'm not going 614 00:31:47,167 --> 00:31:49,375 That's something you have 615 00:31:50,626 --> 00:31:55,083 When you're a small business owner, 616 00:31:55,083 --> 00:31:59,167 this is your job and you're going 617 00:31:59,167 --> 00:32:02,584 might not make payroll and you realize 618 00:32:02,584 --> 00:32:06,792 50 people who might not make rent 619 00:32:06,792 --> 00:32:09,250 need to do for those folks. 620 00:32:09,292 --> 00:32:11,876 You might feel an obligation 621 00:32:11,876 --> 00:32:13,250 That was the kind 622 00:32:13,250 --> 00:32:15,542 for our grandfather's time. 623 00:32:15,542 --> 00:32:16,292 I'm not going 624 00:32:16,292 --> 00:32:18,459 of them didn't have corporate jobs. 625 00:32:19,876 --> 00:32:21,584 You go and work, you spend 50 years, 626 00:32:21,584 --> 00:32:24,083 the gold watch has changed a little bit. 627 00:32:24,167 --> 00:32:25,250 Other societies. 628 00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:26,083 Not so much 629 00:32:26,083 --> 00:32:28,709 of tribes people have responsibility to. 630 00:32:28,999 --> 00:32:30,834 Tribes that existed much longer than 631 00:32:30,834 --> 00:32:33,834 the British people happened 632 00:32:34,083 --> 00:32:36,083 Our society or civilization. 633 00:32:36,584 --> 00:32:39,125 There's a sci fi author who likes 634 00:32:39,125 --> 00:32:42,999 of a civilization that he's proud 635 00:32:42,999 --> 00:32:45,375 is an interesting argument. 636 00:32:45,542 --> 00:32:47,626 Our nation and our species. 637 00:32:48,250 --> 00:32:51,584 This is not 638 00:32:51,584 --> 00:32:54,250 Clearly if your friend kills somebody 639 00:32:54,250 --> 00:32:56,959 is a dangerous person, 640 00:32:56,959 --> 00:33:01,542 to your society overrode your 641 00:33:01,542 --> 00:33:02,167 Although I don't know a lot 642 00:33:02,167 --> 00:33:04,459 in their kids no matter what happened? 643 00:33:04,709 --> 00:33:07,876 How many kids would turn their kid 644 00:33:08,083 --> 00:33:09,292 Almost nobody. 645 00:33:09,292 --> 00:33:10,292 You did? 646 00:33:10,292 --> 00:33:11,292 Okay. 647 00:33:11,292 --> 00:33:14,334 Are you Robert Moore Moore senior 648 00:33:14,334 --> 00:33:17,667 So I thought he wouldn't be here 649 00:33:21,250 --> 00:33:24,375 We haven't talked about this 650 00:33:24,375 --> 00:33:28,999 the idea that there would be universal 651 00:33:28,999 --> 00:33:32,626 There's Hippocrates and 652 00:33:32,626 --> 00:33:33,999 They have an oath of lasagna. 653 00:33:34,999 --> 00:33:38,459 It's funny but literally 654 00:33:38,459 --> 00:33:40,083 a new oath. 655 00:33:44,417 --> 00:33:47,751 Medicine are the scientific priests. 656 00:33:51,083 --> 00:33:54,375 Scientific priests used observation 657 00:33:54,375 --> 00:33:59,709 to make people better and that put them 658 00:33:59,709 --> 00:34:03,125 gave them some kind of responsibility. 659 00:34:03,584 --> 00:34:07,125 We're the technological priesthood 660 00:34:09,834 --> 00:34:13,209 Everybody here has fixed their family's 661 00:34:13,209 --> 00:34:15,083 reminds you 662 00:34:15,083 --> 00:34:18,709 of the world that underlies our day 663 00:34:18,709 --> 00:34:20,999 of people do not understand. 664 00:34:21,083 --> 00:34:22,083 We do. 665 00:34:22,501 --> 00:34:25,999 Maybe that gives us moral obligation 666 00:34:27,959 --> 00:34:31,209 All people discover their technology 667 00:34:31,292 --> 00:34:33,999 This would be equivalent 668 00:34:33,999 --> 00:34:38,501 in Geneva Conventions if you are go 669 00:34:38,501 --> 00:34:43,751 to be treated just as was as well 670 00:34:44,542 --> 00:34:47,834 Doctors will risk their lives to save 671 00:34:47,834 --> 00:34:51,209 of people their coworkers just shot. 672 00:34:54,083 --> 00:34:56,584 We don't have that kind of thing 673 00:34:56,584 --> 00:34:58,292 But maybe we need to have that. 674 00:34:58,834 --> 00:35:00,667 The idea that the Internet is used 675 00:35:00,667 --> 00:35:03,626 of oppression rather than liberation. 676 00:35:03,626 --> 00:35:05,918 This is dangerous, 677 00:35:05,918 --> 00:35:09,999 to be liberated from the oppression 678 00:35:09,999 --> 00:35:13,999 all the children from the porn, 679 00:35:13,999 --> 00:35:18,501 in a way that can be oppressive itself, 680 00:35:18,501 --> 00:35:22,375 at least you're not going 681 00:35:24,209 --> 00:35:29,999 If you start to go down the ethics, 682 00:35:29,999 --> 00:35:35,999 in a famous paper neither our distance 683 00:35:35,999 --> 00:35:40,542 of people in respects to that evil 684 00:35:40,542 --> 00:35:45,209 as we lessens that ability 685 00:35:45,459 --> 00:35:47,792 He's saying 686 00:35:47,792 --> 00:35:51,709 for not doing something right 687 00:35:51,709 --> 00:35:55,999 or it's physically far away are bullshit 688 00:35:55,999 --> 00:35:59,125 He was making this argument 689 00:35:59,125 --> 00:36:03,918 He was saying who likes it there are 690 00:36:03,999 --> 00:36:06,959 Everybody wants every child 691 00:36:06,959 --> 00:36:10,709 Therefore, if you don't take every dollar 692 00:36:10,709 --> 00:36:13,876 to feed your own children 693 00:36:13,876 --> 00:36:16,292 you're morally repugnant. 694 00:36:16,542 --> 00:36:18,999 You have fallen short 695 00:36:18,999 --> 00:36:21,667 That's a crazy argument that 696 00:36:21,667 --> 00:36:25,417 society would fall apart as we 697 00:36:25,417 --> 00:36:28,792 and there's no idea of a consumer 698 00:36:28,792 --> 00:36:31,334 of thing when you think 699 00:36:31,334 --> 00:36:36,999 of ethics that people have gotten 700 00:36:36,999 --> 00:36:39,999 We're not going to hit it 701 00:36:39,999 --> 00:36:41,999 Another reason is personal legacy. 702 00:36:42,125 --> 00:36:45,083 Some say I'm reducing human 703 00:36:45,083 --> 00:36:47,167 economic benefits. 704 00:36:47,959 --> 00:36:50,751 A lot of people laughed when 705 00:36:50,751 --> 00:36:53,375 doing God's work which I thought was 706 00:36:53,375 --> 00:36:55,542 he honestly believes it. 707 00:36:56,292 --> 00:36:58,999 One of the great things 708 00:36:58,999 --> 00:37:01,125 of people rising out of poverty 709 00:37:01,125 --> 00:37:05,083 because of us shipping them bags 710 00:37:05,083 --> 00:37:07,751 It's because they were able 711 00:37:07,751 --> 00:37:12,209 to sell goods and services that 712 00:37:18,667 --> 00:37:21,999 The guy who started Tata motors took 713 00:37:21,999 --> 00:37:25,125 out in the fields and were 714 00:37:25,125 --> 00:37:27,209 reasonably good jobs. 715 00:37:27,209 --> 00:37:29,083 That's an argument some people have. 716 00:37:29,125 --> 00:37:30,918 Making your own family wealthy. 717 00:37:31,083 --> 00:37:32,959 Building something that lasts. 718 00:37:32,959 --> 00:37:35,292 If you study engineering, 719 00:37:35,292 --> 00:37:37,709 the idea 720 00:37:37,709 --> 00:37:40,209 they're gone the work lives on. 721 00:37:40,999 --> 00:37:43,792 That's building 722 00:37:44,667 --> 00:37:47,959 So something to think about though 723 00:37:47,959 --> 00:37:50,542 down and think 724 00:37:50,542 --> 00:37:53,083 that means you're rich and lucky. 725 00:37:53,083 --> 00:37:54,834 Because the vast majority 726 00:37:54,834 --> 00:37:56,876 they can do 727 00:37:56,876 --> 00:37:59,501 to feed in their family and friends. 728 00:37:59,501 --> 00:38:00,999 The rest 729 00:38:00,999 --> 00:38:03,459 forget about the fact that when we talk 730 00:38:03,459 --> 00:38:05,999 because we have the ability to do so. 731 00:38:05,999 --> 00:38:10,999 Here we're going to get 732 00:38:10,999 --> 00:38:12,250 By fun, probably not fun. 733 00:38:13,083 --> 00:38:15,626 So the way I'm going to do this 734 00:38:15,626 --> 00:38:19,626 up ethical conundrums 735 00:38:19,626 --> 00:38:21,667 I'm going to read the conundrum 736 00:38:21,667 --> 00:38:24,542 please don't hoot and holler 737 00:38:24,542 --> 00:38:26,667 You can laugh if it's funny. 738 00:38:28,542 --> 00:38:30,792 Let's be respectful of each other. 739 00:38:30,999 --> 00:38:35,501 I'm going to poll the audience 740 00:38:35,501 --> 00:38:39,083 This is supposed to be a safe space, 741 00:38:42,375 --> 00:38:45,542 Would be really easy for us 742 00:38:45,542 --> 00:38:48,292 to the hardest anarchist side. 743 00:38:51,083 --> 00:38:54,209 If everybody in here acting that way, 744 00:38:54,209 --> 00:38:56,667 in the problem it is right now. 745 00:38:56,667 --> 00:38:59,125 So let's be honest 746 00:39:00,083 --> 00:39:02,083 Who here played Ultima 4. 747 00:39:02,375 --> 00:39:04,083 Old people. 748 00:39:05,167 --> 00:39:08,501 1985, first video game that basically 749 00:39:08,501 --> 00:39:11,999 the way you generated your character 750 00:39:11,999 --> 00:39:14,834 and you'd make a decision 751 00:39:14,834 --> 00:39:16,250 out of it. 752 00:39:16,292 --> 00:39:19,209 First time you did it you answered them 753 00:39:19,209 --> 00:39:21,167 and got a cheat sheet. 754 00:39:21,999 --> 00:39:25,083 And for a while it was 755 00:39:25,083 --> 00:39:26,918 go through. 756 00:39:26,918 --> 00:39:28,417 So that's what we're doing here. 757 00:39:29,083 --> 00:39:30,918 First question. 758 00:39:31,250 --> 00:39:32,542 Warmup question. 759 00:39:32,999 --> 00:39:36,250 You find a critical remote exploit 760 00:39:36,250 --> 00:39:37,250 What do you do? 761 00:39:37,250 --> 00:39:39,834 Do you publicly announce 762 00:39:39,834 --> 00:39:40,876 Public disclosure. 763 00:39:41,083 --> 00:39:43,334 You wait and build 764 00:39:45,542 --> 00:39:47,999 Perform responsible disclosure 765 00:39:47,999 --> 00:39:52,542 to what you consider reasonable 766 00:39:52,959 --> 00:39:55,167 D, you use it 767 00:39:55,167 --> 00:39:57,125 to sell consulting. 768 00:39:57,667 --> 00:39:59,999 You're laughing but it happens 769 00:40:00,125 --> 00:40:03,000 E, you weaponize it and sell it directly 770 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,999 know is going to give it 771 00:40:06,167 --> 00:40:09,667 F, you weaponize it and sell it 772 00:40:09,667 --> 00:40:13,250 that's going to go after that 773 00:40:13,250 --> 00:40:13,792 than E. 774 00:40:13,792 --> 00:40:16,250 Use it for fun or profit. 775 00:40:16,375 --> 00:40:16,959 Who would do A. 776 00:40:16,959 --> 00:40:19,999 Only two full disclosure people. 777 00:40:20,999 --> 00:40:23,918 B, build a black hat talk. 778 00:40:23,999 --> 00:40:25,209 Okay, excellent. 779 00:40:25,584 --> 00:40:28,083 C, perform responsible disclosure 780 00:40:28,083 --> 00:40:29,626 Wow, awesome. 781 00:40:29,999 --> 00:40:30,999 D? 782 00:40:31,751 --> 00:40:33,626 Okay, excellent. 783 00:40:33,626 --> 00:40:34,999 I know you who you are. 784 00:40:34,999 --> 00:40:39,000 E, you'd weaponize and sell it 785 00:40:39,334 --> 00:40:44,876 F, weaponize it and just sell it and G, 786 00:40:45,667 --> 00:40:47,250 Decent number of people. 787 00:40:47,375 --> 00:40:48,375 That's fine. 788 00:40:48,375 --> 00:40:50,709 It seems like disclosure crowd. 789 00:40:50,999 --> 00:40:53,999 That's my answer, C guy. 790 00:40:56,250 --> 00:40:58,417 Your job 791 00:40:58,417 --> 00:41:00,792 you successfully uncover 792 00:41:00,792 --> 00:41:02,999 like an actual break in. 793 00:41:02,999 --> 00:41:06,250 Not a stupid violation and figure 794 00:41:06,250 --> 00:41:10,792 for the company full time or contractor, 795 00:41:10,792 --> 00:41:12,999 You write a report give it 796 00:41:12,999 --> 00:41:14,584 to the U.S. 797 00:41:14,792 --> 00:41:16,792 Attorney and you find 798 00:41:16,792 --> 00:41:18,709 for extreme penalties. 799 00:41:18,709 --> 00:41:21,209 Whatever it is, 800 00:41:22,209 --> 00:41:24,999 Do you A say I'm adjusting go 801 00:41:24,999 --> 00:41:27,167 to assist the prosecution. 802 00:41:27,209 --> 00:41:31,751 It's there is an adversarial process here 803 00:41:31,999 --> 00:41:35,959 B, you do nothing, try to stay 804 00:41:35,959 --> 00:41:36,999 You've done your part. 805 00:41:37,250 --> 00:41:40,083 C, you gently work 806 00:41:40,083 --> 00:41:43,250 but you don't do anything past that. 807 00:41:43,417 --> 00:41:46,125 D, you outright say I'm not going 808 00:41:46,125 --> 00:41:47,751 You cannot put me on the stand. 809 00:41:47,751 --> 00:41:49,167 Do not call me again. 810 00:41:49,375 --> 00:41:52,709 E, you call the defense and volunteer 811 00:41:52,709 --> 00:41:55,584 This may or may not be legal 812 00:41:55,999 --> 00:41:57,083 You can ask Kurt. 813 00:41:58,209 --> 00:42:05,375 You publicly take a stand, 814 00:42:05,375 --> 00:42:08,959 that protects witness. 815 00:42:08,959 --> 00:42:11,999 Whenever you do expert witness stuff, 816 00:42:11,999 --> 00:42:17,250 fuck you federal judge, I'm going 817 00:42:17,334 --> 00:42:22,918 A is a hard 1 818 00:42:27,209 --> 00:42:31,209 B, C gently work 819 00:42:31,959 --> 00:42:33,667 Largest so far. 820 00:42:33,751 --> 00:42:36,501 D outright refuse to participate. 821 00:42:37,417 --> 00:42:39,959 E, volunteer to the defense. 822 00:42:40,417 --> 00:42:43,584 And then F, go nuclear on Twitter. 823 00:42:45,125 --> 00:42:46,250 Okay. 824 00:42:46,250 --> 00:42:50,167 So I think it was C or D in a lot 825 00:42:50,417 --> 00:42:52,417 That's actually where I am personally. 826 00:42:52,417 --> 00:42:52,999 Somewhere between C and D. 827 00:42:52,999 --> 00:42:56,083 In just am I little bit 828 00:42:56,083 --> 00:43:00,459 off a federal judge is a world 829 00:43:00,459 --> 00:43:03,999 I'm not going to put my kids 830 00:43:04,125 --> 00:43:07,834 Volunteering for the defense 831 00:43:07,834 --> 00:43:10,918 what you guys said, which is good. 832 00:43:10,918 --> 00:43:12,125 You're approached by a member 833 00:43:12,125 --> 00:43:14,209 apparatus in a fend friendly matter. 834 00:43:17,501 --> 00:43:20,125 You haven't done anything wrong, 835 00:43:20,125 --> 00:43:21,999 this is just a chat. 836 00:43:22,083 --> 00:43:27,083 Do you A say yeah, let's go grab a beer, 837 00:43:27,083 --> 00:43:31,584 the girl thing and slip them 838 00:43:33,459 --> 00:43:36,667 C, say feel free to send me 839 00:43:36,667 --> 00:43:41,334 by e mail or we can set up a time 840 00:43:41,667 --> 00:43:46,209 D (Laughter) Or E. 841 00:43:46,209 --> 00:43:48,751 Okay. 842 00:43:53,584 --> 00:43:55,667 So A, who would do A? 843 00:43:55,667 --> 00:43:56,667 Take the meeting? 844 00:43:56,999 --> 00:43:58,083 Decent number of people. 845 00:43:58,083 --> 00:43:59,999 Probably about a quarter of the room. 846 00:43:59,999 --> 00:44:01,626 B, politely try to get out of it. 847 00:44:01,626 --> 00:44:02,834 More than a few women. 848 00:44:02,999 --> 00:44:03,999 I understand that. 849 00:44:04,125 --> 00:44:04,999 C. 850 00:44:04,999 --> 00:44:07,209 D? 851 00:44:07,876 --> 00:44:08,167 And E. 852 00:44:08,167 --> 00:44:12,375 Let's hear you're weaving, sir, 853 00:44:12,876 --> 00:44:15,167 So here's one I have to admit. 854 00:44:15,167 --> 00:44:16,626 I did A, people 855 00:44:16,626 --> 00:44:19,542 a beer, we'd love to hear 856 00:44:22,083 --> 00:44:24,709 I bought them beers and we sat 857 00:44:24,709 --> 00:44:27,999 for two hours and talked 858 00:44:27,999 --> 00:44:31,626 But this year no, I'd be a C, 859 00:44:31,626 --> 00:44:33,999 isolate ourselves. 860 00:44:33,999 --> 00:44:34,876 I don't think we need 861 00:44:34,876 --> 00:44:37,292 I'll never talk to anybody 862 00:44:37,292 --> 00:44:38,709 Because that kind 863 00:44:38,709 --> 00:44:40,250 to educate them. 864 00:44:40,250 --> 00:44:41,792 Again, they work for us. 865 00:44:44,999 --> 00:44:47,999 But especially 866 00:44:47,999 --> 00:44:51,918 with somebody who works 867 00:44:51,918 --> 00:44:56,959 the tiniest little mistake could be 868 00:44:56,999 --> 00:44:58,999 And so I don't think we're 869 00:44:58,999 --> 00:45:01,626 of us can interact 870 00:45:01,626 --> 00:45:04,501 in any way without attorneys present. 871 00:45:04,501 --> 00:45:05,501 It's just not safe. 872 00:45:05,501 --> 00:45:06,501 Okay. 873 00:45:06,501 --> 00:45:08,667 We'll do this a little more quickly. 874 00:45:08,667 --> 00:45:10,542 You work for respected cloud company. 875 00:45:10,542 --> 00:45:13,250 Course of duties you find a back door, 876 00:45:13,250 --> 00:45:16,999 without giving you any more 877 00:45:16,999 --> 00:45:19,125 Do you drop it, escalate 878 00:45:19,125 --> 00:45:22,999 for a new jock, publicly quit or pull 879 00:45:24,918 --> 00:45:25,999 Okay. 880 00:45:35,083 --> 00:45:37,334 Yeah, I mean, I'm probably 881 00:45:37,334 --> 00:45:39,292 on what I think the enforceable 882 00:45:39,292 --> 00:45:41,959 whether there's criminal penalties. 883 00:45:42,083 --> 00:45:44,834 I'm hoping people at Google feel 884 00:45:45,584 --> 00:45:48,125 You work 885 00:45:48,125 --> 00:45:50,167 Your boss hands you an order 886 00:45:50,167 --> 00:45:52,125 from the government. 887 00:45:52,999 --> 00:45:56,584 That is considered legal 888 00:45:56,584 --> 00:46:00,167 Do you comply and just forget drinking 889 00:46:00,459 --> 00:46:02,167 B, refuse 890 00:46:02,167 --> 00:46:04,209 going to do it you have 891 00:46:04,209 --> 00:46:06,083 but do nothing else. 892 00:46:06,375 --> 00:46:08,959 C, quietly look for a new job. 893 00:46:09,999 --> 00:46:15,209 D, publicly quit in protest, 894 00:46:15,459 --> 00:46:18,083 Or E, I would be happy to do that sir, 895 00:46:18,083 --> 00:46:21,250 of us using hardware security module, 896 00:46:21,250 --> 00:46:23,667 and somebody 897 00:46:23,667 --> 00:46:26,083 and our implementation 898 00:46:26,083 --> 00:46:28,959 me doing this 899 00:46:28,959 --> 00:46:30,417 you'll like. 900 00:46:30,417 --> 00:46:31,334 Please decide whether or not you'd 901 00:46:31,334 --> 00:46:34,501 to proceed now that I'm informed you 902 00:46:34,501 --> 00:46:37,167 to the world that you've asked me 903 00:46:37,876 --> 00:46:41,542 So obviously I'm telling you E 904 00:46:41,542 --> 00:46:48,999 (Applause.) But E requires forethought. 905 00:46:48,999 --> 00:46:50,584 So that's why I brought this up. 906 00:46:51,584 --> 00:46:56,167 If there's a backup key 907 00:46:57,083 --> 00:47:00,417 I'm building a service for people 908 00:47:00,876 --> 00:47:03,334 So I am backing myself 909 00:47:03,334 --> 00:47:06,999 out of and I will leave it 910 00:47:06,999 --> 00:47:09,125 to come to me to force me 911 00:47:09,125 --> 00:47:11,999 to decide which poison they want. 912 00:47:11,999 --> 00:47:13,834 Either violate certificate 913 00:47:13,834 --> 00:47:15,999 in there or putting a certificate 914 00:47:15,999 --> 00:47:17,999 the whole world knows. 915 00:47:17,999 --> 00:47:20,999 (Applause.) Don't plan for that. 916 00:47:22,667 --> 00:47:25,250 You work 917 00:47:25,250 --> 00:47:27,209 You work 918 00:47:27,209 --> 00:47:30,626 like an IDS and you find 919 00:47:30,626 --> 00:47:34,959 on their citizens, do you do nothing, B, 920 00:47:34,959 --> 00:47:39,083 the company selling it to these folks, C, 921 00:47:39,083 --> 00:47:40,751 dual use. 922 00:47:41,209 --> 00:47:43,876 A, that's a reasonable thing. 923 00:47:43,876 --> 00:47:46,918 Gun manufacture you think 924 00:47:49,792 --> 00:47:51,501 I build a gun. 925 00:47:51,876 --> 00:47:53,417 A gun is not a moral object. 926 00:47:53,417 --> 00:47:54,999 People use it in a good or bad way. 927 00:47:56,167 --> 00:47:58,876 B, change corporate culture. 928 00:47:59,083 --> 00:48:00,375 That won't happen. 929 00:48:00,375 --> 00:48:01,375 Good luck. 930 00:48:01,459 --> 00:48:05,876 C work from a technical perspective. 931 00:48:05,999 --> 00:48:09,667 D, quietly quit and E go nuclear. 932 00:48:10,501 --> 00:48:12,459 This is a tough one. 933 00:48:12,501 --> 00:48:15,167 People that work 934 00:48:15,167 --> 00:48:17,292 day apparently. 935 00:48:18,083 --> 00:48:20,751 So we don't have time 936 00:48:20,751 --> 00:48:23,209 like you guys to do, you don't have 937 00:48:23,209 --> 00:48:26,459 I have no moral authority here 938 00:48:26,459 --> 00:48:28,417 a good thing to do. 939 00:48:28,417 --> 00:48:31,083 Try to live an examined life 940 00:48:31,083 --> 00:48:32,999 Think about what you want to do now. 941 00:48:32,999 --> 00:48:35,083 Don't get caught being asked 942 00:48:35,083 --> 00:48:39,083 and not against your means 943 00:48:39,083 --> 00:48:42,667 It's easy to say yes when you're 944 00:48:42,918 --> 00:48:43,918 Teach people. 945 00:48:43,918 --> 00:48:46,999 People with pony tails have lots 946 00:48:47,083 --> 00:48:50,918 Teach people about how 947 00:48:52,083 --> 00:48:54,542 Be open and honest with themselves. 948 00:48:54,999 --> 00:48:58,999 Something you can do right now 949 00:48:58,999 --> 00:49:04,417 for supporting reform 950 00:49:04,584 --> 00:49:06,751 This letter has been signed 951 00:49:07,876 --> 00:49:09,083 Who else? 952 00:49:09,999 --> 00:49:12,751 I'm blanking, Ari, Schwartz. 953 00:49:12,918 --> 00:49:13,999 Avi Ruben. 954 00:49:16,375 --> 00:49:20,083 Security researchers and academia 955 00:49:20,083 --> 00:49:22,999 private world have signed this. 956 00:49:22,999 --> 00:49:25,292 You don't have to sign it on behalf 957 00:49:25,292 --> 00:49:26,292 This is just you. 958 00:49:26,292 --> 00:49:27,834 If you'd like to get 959 00:49:27,834 --> 00:49:31,709 before it goes public 960 00:49:31,709 --> 00:49:35,876 There's folks up here from the EFF 961 00:49:35,876 --> 00:49:37,999 We're out of time so, if you want 962 00:49:37,999 --> 00:49:40,375 thank you very much for listening.