>> My name is David Latimer, I'm uh security sul- consultant at Bishop Fox. Um this is our part managing partner Fran Brown. Um we are talk is obviously on drone defense. Um, we uh, want to take it? [inaudible] We just had a little technical difficulty difficulties setting up everything. Yeah, you know how dumb a God's, they're not nice. Uh this is my first Def Con presentation, this is his fifth. [applause] Alright. I think they'll come in a minute here. [applause] >> Really want to mess with the guy with the microphone? 'Cause I'll win. Goons. Drunks. [laughter] Ok, yeah, is this one. Yeah, ok, cool. Welcome everybody to Game of Drones. Uh, my name is Fran Brown I'm a partner at uh Bishop Fox. It's a cyber security consulting firm. Helps companies secure their uh, networks and applications. Sorry for the delayed start. It's a good thing I had every install I ever downloaded ever and couldn’t install uh VLC player real quick and few things on the system to get it running. Um, we'll go ahead and get started then. It's an interesting setup, I have to kind of manage this extended mode with the monitor all the way down there. Look behind me. Ok, uh got a lot I want to cover today. I know we're running a little late already. Um, but basically I want to get started with uh a quick overview of the Danger Drone. One, because it's cool, two because we're gonna give one away to somebody in here. Yeah, Whoo. [applause] Yeah, you can handle it. Uh and then uh I I very quickly want to move beyond that and get into some of the drone defense products. And the whole industry of drone defense products and some of the stuff we're going to do in terms of uh testing out these uh fun products. And then uh I'll do a little bit of overview of uh some of the legal landscape and things that are happening, wrap up with uh, what the future looks like. Which is scary and kind of crazy. So before I even get into the danger drone, I want to talk a little bit about motivations. Uh why do we do this talk? Uh why is this important? What are we going for here? Uh, the there's basically a couple angles that this put, for the most part um, when our uh customers come to us and they say, hey Fran, what do I need to know about drones? Or, do I need, what do I need to be looking into for drone services or drone defenses or products or is this something I need to do? I want to have good answers for them. And not only that, but I want to provide a resource uh with this talk and the research could be a uh, to- have answers for people as they ask that. 'Cause if you google for drone defenses right now, you're going to get eight kajillion hits oh and uh which is just basically all marketing material. Um, uh and a lot of it is a complete sham. Um, so I actually put out a real resource that you can look at and actually get some real answers when it comes to drone defenses. How many people here have paid for drone defenses or going to pay for drone defenses in the next year with their company or their organization? No? Alright. Like three people. What are you guys doing in this talk then? I don't know. [laughter] >> If it's not a problem now, it will be soon. Promise. >> Yeah, yeah. Who's worried about for your house or your kids or something like that or? A few more. Alright. Cool. Um, so yeah so uh I I basically started seeing uh, a lot of crazy articles uh and I I had to kind of like peek at them after awhile. You see you know popping or mashable or you see these eagles that are plucking drones out of the sky and these guys with these huge like bazookas. Uh and uh jammer devices and uh and I'm not just finding myself asking, I saw the eagles and I was like, I bet I bet I could beat those Eagles. Like, [laughter] How hard would it be to beat an eagle? Like with a drone and technology? And bring you know nature to a science? Um, has anyone really tested them to see if they work? Um. So that's kind of how it started and I started looking into it a little bit more and the more I kept pealing back the onion, the more I realized that this uh this industry for the most part is, to say its in its infancy is an understatement. Uh and to say most of it is a complete sham in terms of what's out there is probably a little more accurate. Um, but to say it's also very necessary right now uh would also be true. So it's going to be important to be able to cut through that stuff. >> Alright introduction of the danger drone. So, welcome to the danger drone. Uh you see at the bottom there, there's a URL, that that the tiny URL, uh, if you go to that, you can submit to enter into to be the person that wins the raffle. And we will wrap it up and ship it to you. A few people brought up uh, you know uh, you know I I might want to be, have to carry this back through uh the airport and stuff like that, so we figured this would be uh an easier way to do it. Was anyone uh go to my talk a few years ago with uh RF detas-, RFID circuit boards? I gave those out live? That was that was uh a pretty crazy experience. I think, I think like five people got killed in the crowd trying to get one of those circuit boards. Somebody gave birth it was like people were knocking each other over. It was like insanity, so to make it a little more reasonable, uh go to that URL and we'll uh we'll ship it to whoever wins. Uh so quick with the danger drone. Basically uh the the long short of the danger drone is we created that to be able to test out these drone defensive products. We wanted to be able to do penetration tests or product evaluations of people who are selling uh drone defense products. Uh and there wasn't anything to do that. I always kind of looked at it as um, you know would buy a smoke detector if you had no way of knowing that it would ever detect a fire? You need the ability to test these things out. So that was kind of the uh the origin of the uh danger drone. And essentially it's just a pe- pentesting quadcopterIt's base- a a hacker laptop that can fly. It's uh it's a Raspberry pi-based quadcopter. So anything you can install on Raspberry pi, which you can run full Kali Linux on Raspberry pi and it will also fly. Um, for doing penetration test. Uh and uh it has the ability to extend it to do whatever you want to do in terms of wireless, bluetooth, Zigby hacking. Um >> We have custom shelving so you can put your different.. >> Yeah, created a custom shelf mo- most quadcopters have, you know, for the two shelves, one for the battery and one for the flag controller. We added a third one for your your wi-fi Pineapple or your you know whatever you want to add in there to your quadcopter. Um and here is another one you could plug in. Plenty open USB ports on it, so Raspberry Pi default for defined radios. Wifi pineapple, stuff like that. If the payloads stick on it there. So we'll see it. Alright, we were having problems with the audio earlier, so hopefully we have proper sound here. [inaudible video] >> Oh, you can kind of hear it. It's, it's, yeah. Ok, restart this. Hit pause. Hold on. What the-, We're not on, have to go back. Guys you ready for this. Especially on audio. Will hit pause. Alright. Ok so what we're about to see here is uh just a quick demonstration of what you would use the danger drone for basically to simulate any kind of pen test especially over the air. Uh and in this case we're going to use it to hack a vulnerable by uh wireless mouse to uh oh- you know do a drive by at a window and highjack somebody's computer. Ready. We nailed this like in two takes. >> [video demo] oh man my logitech wireless mouse is awesome. All I need now is another cup of coffee. >> We did a submission for the Oscar for uh. [laughter] [applause] >> TLDR, throw away all your wireless mouse and keyboards when you get home. Um, yeah so it's a b- it's a pretty uh pretty easy demonstration of what's possible. Um you can basically hook up anything you want to do with, it was a crazy radio hooked up to that, but you can hook up a wifi panel or anything like that and just derive bys and uh highjack people's networks and systems. With the Danger drone. Um, so got it at uh URL again. Uh if you want to try to get one for free. >> This is like parts and pieces uh uh most of the airframe can be 3D printed we have all that up on our thingiverse if you google tes- penetration testors, that was our project last year, but. >> Yep, the bulk of it could be 3D printed including the custom shelf. Uh ADs, basically a modified Erle Brain three. Uh which is uh those guys are great, they're from Spain. They built the qua-, they basically built our Raspberry pi, basically quadcopter that could fly and we just added the ability to hack to it. Um you could build it yourself or uh, it's even a little bit cheaper now but under five hundred bucks total for all the major components that you would need. About three seventy last time I checked. Um we'll be updating the website with that new image and things like that later today, but already up there is uh the parts list and links to Amazon, stuff that you can do to get it and um it's all up on our website right now. If you go to danger drone dot IO or Bishop Fox dot com, you should be able to find it. And uh lastly, just been great uh, this has been good for testing drone defensive uh products and evaluating them but it's also in general if you're doing penetration tests kind of the advent of the internet of things is that everything is talking over the air now and having a drone that can hack is kind of the ideal platform for hacking stuff over the air, without consequence, uh so it's uh been kind of nice uh to have this capability and now and uh with there being more targets than every. Uh in terms of uh you know hackings you'd be having. Wifi or Bluetooth or you name it. Cool. Ah so that's the danger drone. Ah the thing in the news. Yeah, so. So, uh leaving after this talk, everyone I've ever met has sent me every article about drone stuff that they've every seen and it's been awesome. So thank you everyone for sending me d- di- did you see this, the article? Did you see the it's been crazy. Eh. The news has been great. For this talk in the last couple weeks alone. Um in terms of uh illustrating what we're going for here. Um so three that I just want to point out and particular kind of illustrate where things are at uh in in the industry. Do you get-, do do you guys see this? [laughter] >> We call that overkill. >> Yeah. Can you can you just picture those guys doing it like, go ahead do it man. Go ahead, use use the three three million dollar uh predator missile, uh patriot missile to take out the two hundred dollar quadcopter. I wander if it was a danger drone. I don't know for sure. Uh that they took out. But yeah it kind of illustrates that um and wha wha I I kind of an assurance that this is du- this is a problem that isn't new it's just new to most people trying to deal with air based threats. There are people in the military that are like, oh yeah, defending yourself against threats from the air. Yeah, like we've been doing that for awhile man. Maybe you've seen Top Gun, or yeah know an anything before that like, so but it's a very ya ya know, it's just new problem for a lot of people. A for corporations, for people in their homes. Uh having the ability to fly and need to defend against it now. But it shows that um, uh the military also kind of needs to a they can they can take out I I think most quadcopters go at about forty to fifty miles an hour and I think uh, uh patriot missile goes at like mock three. Um, so they can handle these problems, but they're going to need, it's not really scaleable and they're going to need to adapt as well. Um as this as the threat continues to adapt. You see on the right there as well, it's a one of the pictures, what they call like a flying IED. People are distracting grenades to quadcopters um for to drop them off for suicide missions. Um so as the threats continue to evolve from a military standpoint uh so will the defenses need to as well. This is awesome by the way. I don't know if any of you guys have seen this, but a couple weeks ago, some guy escaped from prison, uh with a drone drop off some wire cutters over the prison yard to him and they they ended up catching him a couple states over. Uh but he was able to break out of prison because a drone dropped off some wire snippers to him. Uh in terms of you know, illustrating the threat, prisons have been one of people leading the way in terms of needing to adopt drone based based defenses, but thus far it's been primarily people dropping in weapons or you know drugs or things like that. I think this is the first actual prison escape based on things that were dropped in by a drone, um but it kind of shows the escalating nature of the threat. >> Big problem for anyone who runs a prison. >> Yeah, yeah, this is a nightmare. >> Alright, so I don't know if you guys heard about this. You all know the wil- wildfires going on in California? There are some raging in Arizona. This guy got arrested for flying a drone near a fire to uh video tape and document it but he was impeding seventeen different aircrafts from fire- firefighting aircrafts that were trying to drop flame retardant and uh got arr- got himself arrested and he's going to be one of the first uh ones charged under the uh well >> Yeah, look at this guys face, this guy is the face of the new threat. [laughter] Look at, look at that mug shot. There is this is a fifty-four year old guy, thought it would make for cool YouTube videos, he was circling his quadcopter around helicopters of firefighters and Emergency responders putting their lives in immediate danger um and he was posting it up on YouTube as he was doing it. Uh and it essentially showed the lack of ability to defend against these things. What they had to do was they were like all of our lives are in danger, we have no way of dealing with this guy, with this quadcopter. We just got to let the fire burn and go home. Like that was their response to the situation. Let it burn. Let's go home. So he goes home. Um which is obviously isn't going to last going forward. They'll need the ability to to defend against uh you know things like that. >> So since we've clearly demonstrated the need for uh this market obviously people, there's all different types of industries that are going to need defenses. Let's go onto the drone defense part. >> Endangering fourteen different aircraft. Fourteen. Substantial risk of imminent death and injury to firefighters because he thought it would be a cool YouTube video this this new quadcopter. Alright. Cool. So that kind of leading the way to the drone defense mar-. This is I gotta tell I I I've had the pleasure some pretty exciting research in my time, pretty fun stuff, this is probably been one of the funnest and probably also one of the most ridiculous. At one point somebody in our company was like what can we do with this, let's be realistic here. And I was like, realistic went out the window a long time ago man. [laugher] Like, we're getting falcons that ger- go after eagl- eagles going after drones, you know, air to air hea- combat going on, like I don't know where realistic fits in. Um just to give you kind of a break down of what the different products are that people are pushing out there right now. Is uh you have basically air to air and ground to air for the most part. Most are net based. You have people who are shooting nets up at drones from the ground, or um, you know drones themselves either with big nets or shooting nets out of other drones. You have predator birds plucking drones out of the sky. Um, as well as uh lasers which are pretty fun. Uh they run about eleven million dollars a pop though so we didn't get access to one of those. Um. [laughter] Yeah. But a so ho- he- this this is what I was seeing in the news, one article and then I was like, hey I gotta look into this. This is this is crazy. Um a couple popular examples that you might see, you got a little first person view of the eagle coming in with a vengeance. Uh in the middle top there, I sent that to every single person I know saying for Christmas this year, I want one of these guys. [laughter] Um, yeah, nobody, huh, we found out they cost about eighty grand a pop and everyone was like we don't love you that much, you're not going to get one of these for Christmas. Uh you see some dog fighting going on there. Looks like Top Gun, you know they're getting good missile tone and shooting a net at another drone. Uh, we'll see here we did uh, we actually got the test out in the dessert. Kind of one of these guys in the bottom left which is a a faster bigger drone. This has a big net dangling from it that it comes and sweeps up your drone in the sky. Um, pretty simple solution right. Uh and uh you got some one of the bazooka jammers there. As well as another one that's shooting uh a net at a and then actually capturing it on the bottom right there. Um so where this is right now. Eh uh basically uh 2017 was the year of the drone, both consumer wise and business wise. People are adopting drones. It went from that weird RFC toy store on the bottom uh corner of the mall to you can get them at the grab aisle in CVS and Walgreens now. That's kind of like the the transition of things going mainstream. And uh uh with that as well people are predicting that by 2022 that the drone defense product industry is going to be a billion dollar industry as well. So everyone is trying to get in on this right now. Ah, we did a research, you're not meant to see this, but just give you a overwhelming, both slides will be available for download as well, but there was eighty-six different products uh that we looked at um that were drone defensive products in some way. Uh from the patriot missile to lasers to the net bazookas to the big flying swooping nets um and it depending on, one of the interesting things is if you read a top ten drone defense products, uh uh report that you could buy out there or somebody you know somebody put together a top five, they're all different. You might get a different ten depending on which report you read. Which is weird, right? Like if you read a top ten life hackers top ten you know whatever uh you know, software for doing your taxes, most of them will be the same depending on where you're looking at right? This was all over the board. Uh there is no fancier code when it comes to drone defensive products right now. And you have a whole crowd set of people that want access to that billion dollars coming up. It really just depends on your situation. Uh, what this has led to is uh making an extremely hard for security professions to get any straight answers uh whatsoever. So this is just, anybody here from department thirteen? Is there, no? I see part of this you're not going to like. Just slides right? Maybe not put your hand up. But this is this is kind of a perfect illustrative example of what is occurred due to all this money coming up. Everyone wanting to get in on this. Uh this .pdf isn't up anymore but its on the way back machine you get access to it. Ha. They put themselves, they did a little matrix of some of the different drone defensive products up there. You can see they put themself in the top right quadrant above like Lockheed Martin and Boeing and uh who have million dollar lasers to shoot down like mags and. So the- they're all the way up in the top right. This was on the fourth of July 2016. They didn't even have a b dot one oh product to sell until six months later. They had nothing except marketing material. And they had a lot of really slick marketing material. I mean I'm reading like New York Times articles and I'm reading Reuter’s articles. You would think all these things are real. Oh hey I've read about that and I saw here and gives it the appearance of legitimacy. Most people learning have a product to sale. But based on the amount of money they've already funneled into marketing you'd think they'd be on version eight of a product version nine's coming out next month. Uh and they de- de- they don't have anything to sale you. And uh, I I had money, I wanted to buys some of these products and it was difficult to do it. Uh I always get e-mails back from their CEO. Uh saying we can't sell it to you, I think its running in like a house. But um. >> Here's a perfect example of great marketing material that doesn't really make sense. Um. >> Sa- Same company this one that wasn't even out yet. It was uh how do they take down drones. Um they mesmerize them. [laughter] With that th- and the product is Mesmer. And it's magic. Uh, what it actually did, what it actually does tot ake a drone out of the sky. I have no idea. No idea whatsoever. Other that it mesmerizes it. So you know I strongly suspect that uh that maybe we can only, I can only imagine uh what it's actually doing. Maybe they didn't even decide what it's going to do yet, so they just put some ones and zeros. Um, uh we're going to go on some of these now, but if you guys uh haven't had a chance to check it out yet, we did uh, we went out to the desert with a lot of these products. Um got a lot of sunburn. Like a hundred and ten degrees out in Arizona. A lot of really cool drone defensive products with uh and wired did an exclusive uh there's some video up on there. Uh where you can check out some of the exclusive video of us testing out a lot of these products. I don't want to spend too much time time on de- detection mechanisms because the drone defensive products kind of break down the detection and then the more interesting response. There's a lot of people in the detection game, whether it's just you know radar or acoustic or you know all kinds of fun stuff coming out, just to, just to be able to tell you that hey there is a drone in your sky outside your building. You know or near you. Um one of the more popular ones is uh Dedrone. And a lot of, you're seeing a, you're starting to see a lot of collapsing of people who are implementing uh response products are starting to partner up with companies like Dedrone too. You you spot that there's a drone there first and then our eagle will come in you know and and swoop it out of the sky. You know so its joint partnership. Um. Yeah. So co- hey. Couple those. Interesting use case with this uh, the drone shield is um, we're seeing a a one of the earlier adopters of these drone defensive products is when they were filming the new star wars movies, th- the first one of the new batch. And people were releasing footage of scene before the movie came out because they were flying over uh the sets. And uh getting uh video footage of it. So um people ask them like how do we prevent these drones from form uh you know getting any spoiler alerts on what's going on with Hans Solo or cause you haven't seen it yet, I won't say. Uh but um yeah so it's a real it's a real problem. And a real threat. And a few more. Airports are adopting them. Although I talked to somebody at the Denver airport. And nobody seemed to know what I was talking about. With this uh at Denver airport implementing Air-fence. To be able to track uh you know they're piloting this, nobody, nobody there seemed to know what the heck I was talking about. So I don't know if its real or not. Predator birds. Ok. So now we're getting into the fun stuff. So that was just detection mechanisms. So drone defensive products for a response. You've a you've detected a rogue drone in your vicinity. What are you going to do now? So if you read any uh, if you read any articles about, you know, Dutch police have implemented eagles to to defend about drones or the French military has done this. This is all one company. This is all one company that does all this. Every article that you've read. It's all one company. Uh guards from above. How much do you think uh one eagle costs? Guesses? [audience guesses] Right there, how much, how much do you think one eagle costs. >> 15K. >> 15K. >> 100K. >> 100K. >> Two million. [audience] >> Three million. What is the price is right. Yeah. >> Too low. >> One dollar, one dollar. [laughter] >> Ok. Ok. Anymore? [audience] >> Seventy-five thousand. Ten mil- ten million. What kind of eagles do you think they got man? [laughter] >> They don't crap gold or anything. Yeah. So uh I was able to get access to and just getting access to prices on this stuff, this is all kept close to the vest. Um we put an app that kind of researched but I was digging to get prices on these kind of products and one of the things I took away from this research is these people have no idea what to charge for drone defensive products. They are just throwing it out there. Ah, it's going to be four- te- -ty thousand dollars? Uh no, a gah I'll see if you flinch or not. Um it is well, oh. See competing products might be five grand and one might be ninety-five grand uh that do the same exact thing. Um but in this particular case uh the initial cost for one eagle is a hundred and fifty-six thousand dollars. For one eagle. They live eighty years, but they're only mission capable for forty years. Um, what do you do with the other forty years? Let it be your best friend. Uh. [laughter] Um and it's another seven grand a year on top of that for maintenance and food and stuff like that. Yeah, so quite an investment. So I don't know who they are selling to. If they're selling to the crowd that are wasting a three million dollar a missile on a quadcopter, maybe they are like this is a bargain, you should go for this. [laughter] I don't know. Um, yeah. That's what we didn't get access to one. Needless to say. Um, we did uh do you want to tell them about going up with the falcon? >> Yeah, uh so we tried we actually tried this uh to try to try to do this in Arizona. Uh we tried to get, there's only one um group that does like falconry. Um Arizona Falconers. There's only fourteen in the entire... >> You want to know anything about falconry or eagles or the market. The two people over here can tell you anything and everything you ever wanted to know about falcons and falconry. >> TLDR it's not uh an effective drone solution for the U.S. because of the animal protection laws. In Britain and the U.K. and you know places in Europe, they don't really care if you want to own a falcon. But in America you can only... >> Yeah, this will never fly in the United States. >> You can only own one if you're rehabilitating it [laughter] >> No pun. For the whole family. >> Yeah, you can't use it for commercial purpose. So unfortunately it was a no go for the uh test video. But we tried. >> Yeah, uh we did we did get to see one falcon they were going to try to help us out and it just, it just stood there. It just sat there. >> It's like nah. >> Nah. So like yeah, if co- I don't feel like it today. [laughter] >> He. Yeah, so in terms of security I was like WSPOs was like I never want to work with animals or kids because you never know they're going to do. Um it'd be like having a firewall that like I'm kind of tired today, I'm not going to block stuff. You know. Like, not exactly reliable. Reputable solution. Now with all this. This is hypothetical, this is hypothetical. It's highly hypothetical. All I'm saying is is that I think I can beat an eagle or a falcon. There are counter measures. Now if we had gotten access to one, I was going to do, so you'll see the kind of counter of these, uh, what are the weaknesses in these different approaches. And at least as I see them uh and how do we try to exploit them. So I would have went for the carrot instead of the stick. I would have went for bacon wrapped mice counter measures. I'm almost positive that it would have went for the food instead of my drone. If I dropped it off. But you know. If it did want to play rough. You know I- I I don't know. Yeah, automatic identification and in response, uh should not be that difficult giving what's out there right now. Hypothetical. Ok, drones shooting. Um, again uh next Christmas if anyone wants to get me one uh these things look awesome. I don't know if they work as well as they do, but these things run about seventy to eighty grand. Uh they are one of the more popular uh can- like cannon launch nets. With the heat seeking and do it even deploys a parachute with it so it doesn't uh ha- it doesn't actually break the drone. Um, so you're going to see different models right? You're going to see the slow motion flashlike kind of form factor to shoot down drones. Which at maybe a little more realistic for um, one thing I want to point out, there is no best drone solution. Right? And in doing this you're gonna have to look at your scenario. Uh what uh interms of a drone defensive solution for a warden who's trying to guard a prison yard versus people who are trying to protect a movie studio or a set, uh versus a someone that's trying to protect a celebrity from paparazzi drones, they're going to have different needs and different use cases that will necessitate different uh solutions. You might not have access to different kinds of uh uh the prison warden might have access to more options then a normal person uh this flashlight is pretty handy for. If you look at the different kind of breakdowns, you have a prison yard is something that is a fixed location you want to defend permanent, right? The uh star ward film set is a fixed location that isn't permanent. It's not going to be there forever. Um if you are guarding Kendra and if you've ever seen that I won't bust it out you know Kendra the TV show. You guys know, you guys know what I'm talking about. Um, and when she had drones in her yard, if you're defending a celebrity that's mobile uh and is in a fixed location, having a little flashlight that you can go around with you, you can shoot out, is an ideal solution. Yeah, so how can I beat these things, right? So I started looking at, you got these eighty thousand dollar net cannons. Um you have hundred thousand dollar uh, uh fighter drones that shoot nets out at you. Though most of these defense solutions are net based. And most of them are really light nets, because it's gotta carry themselves and it's gotta shoot them. So they rely not on the weight of net pulling you do, they rely on the net getting caught up in your motors. Mo- most of these defenses is tens of thousands dollar defenses, uh to be able to take down your drone. So I thought could I beat some of these uh the flashlight ones are like six seven hundred bucks. Uh uh some of the other ones are like you know twenty thirty grand. Um could I beat it with like fifteen dollars worth of chicken wire. Um and the answer is yes. We could. [laughter] >> So. Counter measures yeah can we get around or ten. Alright. We'll want to. We'll do some videos here. So this one I think we're testing out the net gun counter friend. Um counter measure. [video demo] >> This is Fran Brown from Bishop Fox and we're testing a net gun, but variety, which is a gun that we wired with chicken wire. >> So and take the time to appreciate how good of a shot this is. Oh. So that's the flashlight based model. that's about twenty feet. So products that go forty-five feet. I would think it would go forty-five feet. >> You would think. [video demo] >> See most net based projectile uh drone defense weapons uh need to be light to get further, so the the weight itself won't weigh down the drone. They rely on getting caught up in the motors to make a drone crash. Uh just some simple like twenty dollar chicken wire bubble around this was enough to prevent the the net from falling into the motors and allowed us to still be able to fly. Um, just. >> Ten dollar chicken wire and zip ties. Effective drone defense. >> That's just chicken wire and zip ties that I wrapped around and uh stop it. [applause] >> We defeated your eighty thousand dollar net gun. >> Uh, I know we're running uh, I know we're running short on time, so just in case I don't get to it, I was talking to one of the other air to airbased net uh uh people who sell products and I was explaining how I was going to use the chicken wire. They're like what kind of test you running? Uh we have a prototype, maybe we can send it t you and get it going? I explained what I was going to do. And they're like, uh no, maybe, I don't think we could sell you are product 'cause I don't think it's gonna work. Uh. [inaudible] This one. So yeah so there's plenty of uh net guards out there and people have do it yourself ones, but oh those flashlight ones go for like five six hundred uh seven hundred bucks in some cases. And now. I will say, we have one demo for this guy. Have any of you guys seen these like shotgun shells? With nets in them? Uh these these worked way better than I thought they were going to work and the cheapest out of anything we tested. It's about twenty bucks for three shells. And uh they were the only net based thing that we tested that actually beat my chickenwire cage. Uh because it's basically still shooting even as a net, it's basically shooting metal out of a shotgun. And stuff. >> Punched a hole right through the net. >> Punched a hole right uh. [laughter] [video demo] >> First uh, we're gonna go ahead and try a sky net shotgun shells. Uh which are twelve gauge shotgun shells that have deploy a net uh specifically to try to take down droves. >> This kind of shotgun shells are one of the simpler drone defense options available. Just twenty dollars for three and they can be fired from any traditional shotgun. The difference of course is the netting which wraps around the drones propellors and take it down. >> Sky nets are extremely effective and cheapest out of all solutions by far. From seventy feet out it took them three to five shots per drone. >> That's the metal piece that went into that. >> So you can see this. >> So we can see here looks like if we. >> Shoot out of the sky. >> [inaudible video] right here do you that he blew a hole in the metal piece that went straight through it. [laughter] >> Yeah, so we just put some like cartoon like shockgun holes in in the uh chickenwire there. Um, and we when you think like net you know ammo you think somewhat safe or partially safe, this I I think you would actually die if you got shot with the uh this stuff. Um, [inaudible]. So we'll just go to some videos. We'll go to the best one. >> We're gonna go to the really fun one now. >> Yeah, so one thing I want to say about this. >> [video demo] Lastly the pista de resistance oh the big guy, we have uh the sparrow hawk attached to. >> So one, one thing I want to say about this is um and I I'll fly some of these guys, you look through our slides out of the air to air base drone defense products, right, I called all of them. All of them are either uh they're they're about to release their v two any day now and they checked the shelves. Bob check the shelves their's no more v one left. Almost none of them actually sale any product. Uh, you know th- th- you got years going back with some of the products uh they're winning awards and and eventually you find out, like we're hoping to ship our first round of products by the end of this year. It looks like they've had products out for years. I only counted one company that out out of the air based ones that would actually sell me and it was a prototype for some air to air base combat. And it's one of the ones in the nature of, it drops a huge nets and tries to scoop in on it. [video demo] >> Lastly, the pista de resistance, uh the big guy, we have uh the sparrow hawk attached to a huge DGI M six hundred uh drone and uh essentially it's gonna be some air to air combat. It's going to try to go catch up with the danger drone with a really big net and swoop it up to try to capture the drone. >> I love how it's kind of crazy there. >> No. >> By far the most expensive option we tested. The drone and the net system together come close to around eleven thousand dollars. >> About eleven grand. Well th- th- the real cost is the actual drone itself. Which is, the filmographers use the same exact drone, its a DGIM six hundred. Uh but a couple interesting things here. They did sell us one. You sen- you never on referral by hand, you're supposed to be able to doit uh I was, do you have an instruction manual for this? And the guys like can you give us an extra day? I was like. [laughter] >> What? Like you send it to me? They're writing it as you go right? This guy sends me five pages of just pure text. Not a single picture, not a single image. It's be like if I shipped you a box full of bicycle parts and like a million parts and just like just pros, just text being as articulate as I can describing how to build a bicycle. And I I you know can you take a photo with your phone or something man? He's like, it's pretty straight forward. It's like, naw, it's pretty much the exact opposite of straight forward. [laughter] Uh. Yeah it's not straight forward even in the least bit. Um but we were able to get it going anyway. >> So that that is an, what you saw right there is an interceptor type obviously air to air interceptor type. >> Yeah. Um they cost too much in terms of defenses against that I was really debating having with those ones that have those swoop in, they have to get really close to you and they have to come in from a predictable direction right. Just chasing me and instead of come from behind me. And I wanted to use a confetti gun uh do like maverick style. As I'm bringing him in closer, letting him get closer and use a confetti gun out the rear. So basically fart confetti on it and make it crash the big drone. Which I'm pretty confident would have worked, but its pretty expensive a gamble at this amount of time. Would the chicken wire stop it in that case? I think it would probably grab one of the chicken wire. The chicken wire is more about the one that shoot the net at it hoping that the net will take it down. Um I think it would actually probably rip up the chicken wire. >> I think part of the other problem is if they have a faster drone then your interceptor drone, there's nothing you can do right. >> Um, so let's get to these real quick. This drone catcher is one of the one's you'll see the most. It's got like dog fighting stuff going on. It's got stuff going back like years. Uh I found uh in some YouTube uh subtitle translations from their, they say it's gonna be about thirty thousand euro. Uh for one of em. Uh and even with all this stuff going back years and years, they're really hoping to ship their first batch of products by the end of this year. Uh can't buy it right now. Uh Airspace, they wouldn't even get back to me. They got back to one of our people saying it cost a millions of dollars. Um to shoot basically shoot a net at it in the air. Uh this is from Michigan. Uh a little research project. And this one's interesting. Excipio. This was Excipio. Uh doing the way back machine, it was thirty-five hundred bucks for one of these net shooter Excipio back in December. Uh they've rebranded, they're gonna be called Drone Hunter, you can't buy the old Excipio anymore. Drone Hunter is not for sale yet, but is it went from thirty-five hundred to forty-seven thousand five hundred dollars. In a couple months with no clear identific-, I said so what's gonna be different about it? And it's gonna be uh, I think we were like, we're charging how much? We need to charge more than that. So pricing is all over the board right now. >> Basically you ask and called in the price and they're like who are you? And if you're government they add a couple zeros. >> Yeah, yeah I have a bunch of these guys with the the Sparrow that we tested. I found a uh a PBF with an old invoice from the end of the year for uh it was twenty-five thousand Euro for one of these other guys. We bought ours for actual sparrow was only five thousand pounds. Uh itself so, versus twenty-five thousand Euros for a similar product. Um you can see they are all over the board. Sparrow. >> Jamming, oh you see all these go- none of these guys can sell in the United States and they won't be able to. Yeah, you see all these articles about these jamming devices for the most part, you can't jam GPS, you can't jam cellphone connections which is what the danger drones uses for command again control. Um they're not allowed to sell this in the United States. Um and they and they won't be. Any time, the foreseeable future. Yeah, this is basically doing reverse turnover cell phone connection full USB uh 3G adapter to control the uh danger drone. Making it pretty much uh uh impossible for most of these jammers to the ones that are legal to buy anyway to work against it. >> Guys I know we're uh running short on time, we'll have uh be able to take questions back there if you. >> Lasers, ok lasers. Ok, so these run or directed energy weapons. These things are cra-, these guys are Boeing are like, maybe we just make a little dumb down version of the ones we use to shoot like real planes out of the sky. Like fighter jets. Uh so they're kind of just made like a you know they're not as good as a department thirteen up in the corner there. Uh... [laughter] But um, yeah. They created these auto-tracking like uh eh- basically eh eh drone going crazy fast, just like auto-tracking no problem you see it burst into flames with direct energy weapons. Um these things I think Boeings are eleven million dollars a unit. And I think think um, I think it's like break down runs about six million dollars a unit. But you're looking at a million dollars for one of these guys. Throw it on the back of your truck to uh to knock these out. Um you see them there, but they're putting them on ships and trucks basically deploying them. Uh they can be beat now. They can be beat. Now most are gonna be, I bet I could beat these lasers. Um. Basically uh China was talking all kinds of crap saying we could, uh we could beat most of uh the US's lasers with just smoke bombs. Well like they eh- may actually be true. Um, smoke and dust and obscurance really degrades the ability to use these. Um putting mirrors, flashing mirrors in your drone uh to uh to ward off the laser. Um, one of my favorites is the meta-materials which bends the uh light and energy around a kind of like predator, do you'd be looking like predator drone. They actually had, you wouldn't look like predator. But that's something similar in terms of like like displacing the heat energy. And uh the last one, there's actually a project and a product that somebody does that has auto tracking that detects that a laser is on you on your drone and immediately responds with another laser back uh. [laughter] Not yeah. So there's a whole people sells these products. It's pretty cool. >> Try to confuse the. >> Again we didn't have millions of dollars to test this stuff out, but maybe, maybe next year. Yeah. Uh, legal issues. Um, this guy is a hero. It's just some random guy basically anyone who registered their drones last year, you can get your money back. This guy was like, this law is just bullc**p man. I'm suing. I'm suing the government and he won. So the registration loan law from last year got thrown out. Couple months ago. Um an- [applause] Ok, we're gotta wrap up. Yep. [applause] Um, one last things with the shot guns and uh uh web people are like why don't you just shoot a regular shotgun at that point? Uh and like this guy did. He's shooting above his house with his kids and all. I don't know if you guys have ever seen anyone poke a LiPo battery that's in these guys? They're basically like lava bombs. That are like that might blow up for no reason whatsoever, let alone if you're shooting a shotgun at it. Um, and it will spit flames everywhere. So not something you want to do in a residential area. Uh trying to shoot these guys out of the sky. Uh and yep. And the future's awesome. Um uh drone swarms. None of these defenses are gonna work about drone swarms. Um none of these nets, you get if I send five thousand drones it's not going to do anything against. I know a couple, yeah you know, these nets aren't going to do anything uh super small bug sized drones. Hybrid approaches. We have one of these spiders so a drone could just drop off a spider and it could crawl on a building could plug in an ethernet port. Uh stuff there. Uh or you'll see like submarines that are coming up just long enough to shoot something in the air off or UPS trucks that are driving in your neighborhood and then deploying a drone. A hybrid approach is going to be big in the future and uh yeah micro bug size. And under water drones. Under water supremacy. Navy's kind of leading the way. You think air when you hear drones. Drone swarms. No one's thinking uh naval supremacy and a million little uh Raspberry pi based submarines. Uh just controlling the ocean and uh that's kind of a big deal still, but nobody thinks about it. Oh and uh Raspberry pi based uh somebody released uh some dog fighting AI stuff, full of Raspberry pi which is being real. So I think some next Top Gun coming out, I think it's gonna be all Raspberry pi like you know. Yeah. The uh the plot for the alternate's down in the other Raspberry pi rumor. You know some of that. But a pretty free game of speed in the sky non-stop. Um and that's uh that's it. We're out of time. Thanks guys. [applause]